Usa As A Wr Contender

[mich lin]

First let me say what an intellegent and thought provoking conversation we are having.

Ishy, everything is relative, compared to some I ride well, compared to Adam Raga I ride like cr@p. That's really the topic, the USA as a world round contender. Comparing our best now with the world's best! Simply put, I know my limitations and will not go beyond them.

I also know that our riders often sell themselves short, with a little differnt approach to the world championship we could again score some consistant world points for the USA.

Not just because nobody shows up from Europe but because our guys and gals earned them. maybe not with this current generation of Pro riders but with the news ones coming up like Smage and those right behind him.

Alan, I'll name names for sure!

Realize however I believe these men did what they did because they believe it was what was best for the sport as a whole. They devised an amazing plan, followed it through and created the sport they felt was best for everyone.

Now, not everyone agreed with them but at least they showed me the respect to lay the plan out for me. Then let me decide my own course for the future, which was to stop riding and get on with my life and career. I respect them for that.

They were Wiltz Wagner, Bud Mylerburg and Dave Russel if I remember the situation right. Wiltz did 99% of the talking while the others just lisened. It was at breakfast on the Sunday morning of my last NATC meeting. The laying out of a new direction for the sport has happened, that's really the best indication that the conversation and plan really happened.

Today sportsmen age groups drive the US championship, not the Pro class as it did during the time of that meeting. None of these men ride anymore, now simply what course do we take? Or do we keep the plan exactly as it is today?

[steve fracy]

Hello Gentleman(and I use that term loosely):

Been away from the board for sometime busy with work and life! It's taken me sometime to read through all the posts and see some great ideas and comments.First things first!

Lane- I think by now we all understand your point of view on the NATC.Lets move forward, quit talking about they have done or not done in the past, to me it's irrelevant.If we all agree that things need to be done to improve things, lets spend the time and energy to focus on that!I thought that the new US trials assoc. was formed to recognize and correct any problems that are being created? Is it not logical to direct any further ideas and questions towards them?Stop flogging a dead horse! Now, I think I do understand why you entered the Pro class last year, to prove a point! Point was duly taken for sure!A sad turnout for the Pro class indeed! A former National Champ can comeback at 55, enter several events, never ride a section, and without being DQ'ed on a technicality would have been ranked 7th in North America! Sad really in many respects! But come on, don't boast about being ranked 7th in the Pro class when you didn't really ride! You broke no rules and paid your entry, and exposed flaws in the system and with the lack of rider's, end of story.

I also wanted to comment on your silly comments about Ryon Bell. It should have read "in your opinion" followed by the sentences about giving up! Unless you actually have all the facts, don't comment on someone else or their decisions.

Ishy has the right idea, and I truly believe that some of this discussion is a bit like having the cart before the horse.We need to re-build a solid foundation at the club level or else all these plans will be made for the future rider's and stars, and no one will come!I am all for creating an environment and system that will enable the cream to rise to the top. From the time I entered my first event, I had a burning desire to keep getting better, win events and be the best! I have come to realize now that that mentality put me in a defenite minority.As Al has stated, most people enjoy riding, riding with there buddies, and making it a family sport! It has also been stated that until the number of rider's increases, the $$$$ will not become available to fund more sponsorship of more rider's. Until the clubs see a significant increase in membership, rider's/workers will remain the same as they are now! More club rider's = more rider's riding regional events=more rider's riding Nationals! If there were more rider's riding Nationals then perhaps we wouldn't need so many classes again! :hat:

Cheers, Steve

Edited December 15, 2005 by Steve Fracy

[mich lin]

Agree Steve!

Why did Bell pack it up by the way?

O, and I did ride some sections at the nationals! I also commuted 3 and one half hours back to LA after day one of the nationals. Worked a 10 hour shift that night on the job, drove another 3 and 1/2 hours back and rode the national the next day. I was exsasted not from the trial but from working all night and the commute back and forth.

Agree with the building the local clubs! Agree about the regional events being a great idea. I also would like to see the roadblocks put up by the NATC taken away that hold our youngsters back.

[no jive]

Lane :madsanta: I was there you did not ride any sections. LIE LIE LIE. You did not ride the Nationals. You rode the loop.

You have a youngster, show us how it is done.

Edited December 15, 2005 by No Jive

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Not my idea but something that seems to be snowballing and doing well in our club.

more events and chances to ride, over the past couple of years our club started holding Wednesday evening trials in the summer, this year I think we had eight wed night rounds.

The format is quick and simple, the trial starts about 6pm, five section four loops, five sections make it easier to get observers, all riders use a number plate on the front of the bike and the observer jots down the score, the thing only takes a couple of hours.

The events are very popular and are attracting entries of over thirty riders, some of the reasons for it being popular, it doesn't interfere with the family weekend, it only takes a short time to run, observers are family or friends that don't mind too much because of the short time it takes to run the event.

Our club is based in and around Portland Oregon, so a good metro area to draw riders from, members with property set the events on their own land so can be done quick and easy any time of week prior to the event, we have enough members with their own land so eight different locations can be used over the series.

I don't think it would work if riders had to drive more than one hour to get to the location, all started from lads getting together on a wed night for a practice.

You married men will know, a quickie is a lot better than nowt.

Edited December 15, 2005 by ishy

[steve fracy]

Clive, I was going to ask Lane a question in that very direction as well. Lane, it would seem to me that someone with all your knowledge should do two things. First, keep your ideas coming about how to re-structure the whole National system to make everyone happy. Perhaps offer your services to this new US assoc. Secondly, I think that it's time that you took one or more of these next breed of young rider's coming up in the US under your wing and sponsored them.YOU have connections in Europe, and all the ideas. Right now, if you want to see the US be a contender again, these kids must be riding in Europe!No time left for the "Smage's" and alike to hang around North America wasting their time! YOu are the guy to help! Getter Dun man! :hat:

Cheers, Steve

[mich lin]

Ishy, that event sounds fantastic, very similar to what Bill Markem does with his Sat. events. They are my favorite trials because they do not consume the whole weekend.

Steve, your right! Of course I don't have enough personel resources to do it alone but I do have a lot of background for helping get Americans back into the world hunt. In fact I have been working with the So Cal Youngsters and the team is going well.

We just presented an overhaul Steve to the NATC requested by the head of the organization. To create an atmosphere where our young riders could begin to go foreward in world competition, Yet at the same time retain the sportsmen age groups which is so important to the NATC. Maybe next year it will get some traction.

Something in your last post really struck me Steve! The way you said you always wanted to be the best. That's attitude, of the right kind that rubs off on other people around you. Clive also just showed the opposite kind of attitude, the one that's negetive and tears down people around them. That is the ying and yang of attitude.

When there is a large group of people in a sport with Steve's kind of attitude, riders get better, the sport grows, people have fun, more bikes are sold, new products pop up because people are excited about the sport.

Keep people with the wrong kind of attitude away from anybody that is hoping to be national or world champion! They are the poison that destroys riding levels, the fun factor, bike sales and our hopes for a bigger the future.

[alan bechard]

Ish, if I have what you are saying correct the riders would not even really stop then and get a card punched, the observer just has to have a pad of paper with numbers 1-30 down the side and 4 blocks beside to write the score in?

Then they just total each rider # up for the 4 loops and be done?

Sounds straight forward and functional.

How many lines do you guys set for these?

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Ish, if I have what you are saying correct the riders would not even really stop then and get a card punched, the observer just has to have a pad of paper with numbers 1-30 down the side and 4 blocks beside to write the score in?

Then they just total each rider # up for the 4 loops and be done?

Sounds straight forward and functional.

How many lines do you guys set for these?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct Al, other than world rounds I don't think I had seen punch cards used in trials until I came to the US, all trials I rode in the UK were run this way.

The observer can sit at the best location to view the section without having to run back and forth punching cards, this alone gets the job moving along faster.

[alan bechard]

Do you guys have like 3 X 5 Index cards with numbers on it or something that you tape to the number plate? Hand them out at sign up or such?

It sure would help to speed things along if you did not have to wait for a punch, I guess the down side would be that possibly they could write something down wrong and it would be harder to catch, but it would be worth that worry to hustle things along, especially in an evening Trials.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Sorry Al, had to get the kids to school, rushed my post.

We have four classes, Novice, intermediate, advanced, expert.

Pre printed section splits with all four classes printed on them

when marking the course you delete the class that doesn't take the direction the split is indicating.

If we run two courses, then only the higher class take the split.

In the works at the moment is permanent numbers for the club members, starting with club champ # 1 down through the classes, but yes we just gave any numbers out on a card up to date.

The marker is reverse printed on the other side so one marker can go ether way.

Edited December 15, 2005 by ishy

[mich lin]

Ishy is correct, this is the way it has been done in England and the Scottish Six days since the beginning of the sport. When I started in the very late 60s riding in the USA, this was the only way we did it as well. Punch cards came into fasion in the early 70s in the USA.

Like your sections markers Ishy, they seem very practical!

The system Bill uses for his grass roots events, is starting the trial at 6pm in the summertime. He runs three loops of 5 sections for his Sat. events with or without observers.

When he finds observers he pays them $20 for the two to three hour event. If he dosn't have enough observers, the show must go on so he will have a punch on a stake at the end of the section, you punch yourself. His wintertime events start at 1pm on Sat and end about 4pm.

These events are a blast, are a great place to start and are excellent practice to keep your skills sharp. We find that the kids get together and practice before and after the event really hard. When you add a competition in the middle of two hard practice sessions it makes for great rider development.

Afterward it's a tradition we all go out for dinner! Sometimes I think the kids enjoy the dinner get together just as much as the riding. Sizzler is the usal stop. We call it the "awards banquet" for the fun of it. The partents also really enjoy this social time with everybody.

What Ishy is talking about and what Bill Markem is doing truely is a great beginning to grassroots success for trials.

[alan bechard]

Wow Ish, simple and sweet, TI has something similar, but I like the looks of your's better. I assume you do not mind if others brazenly steal that idea? I posted it over on the STRA site as food for thought.

And I know you will sleep better tonight now that Lane said you were correct...... on how they mark trials where you came from

Well, maybe Mrs. Ish will be 15 minutes late tomorrow :santa1:

Maybe that is a route to take, just try and develop more local riders doing the run what you brung thing.

Only problem there is that as bikes have progressed, they have gone further and further from the middle. You should have seen some of the crashes we had with Enduro guys in our sections at my last event..... Some of it was truly scary..

[the artist formerly known as ish]

They don't mark the sections with split markers like above, in fact up until the day I left the UK, they didn't have splits, and only three classes, Nov,Int,Exp all rode the same line, the world round riders of those days were the top experts.

Things changed a lot since!! now the world round riders are too good to mix with the peasants at club trials, but I have noticed the waiting in line at world rounds isn't quite the issue it used to be.

Scoring by writing the score down is still the norm in the UK, often a club trial would start around 11am and you could be in the pub lying to your mates by 2pm

Gleaning ideas from different clubs around the world is probably the way to come up with a format to cater for the majority, I don't often come up with an original idea of my own, but I do try other peoples ideas, it's the only way to see if it works or not.

[mich lin]

Two or more witnesses Alan!

I've always been a fan of doing trials the English way in the USA. They still use the classic rules at most of their events, so does the Scottish Six Days.

For the most part all events in England are mail entries only, you cannot come and sign up the day of the event. You must pre-enter by mail, similar to the US nationals, only most don't allow late entreis the day of the event like a US national does.

Most of their trials also start riders one per minute like a US national or an enduro. The entry numbers are often given by reciept of the entry, the first gets number one, The last entry accepted gets the last number.

No mass starts there either, with differnt classes starting at differnt sections. Everyone starts at section one and goes through the course in section order. Rider number one starts first, then one minute later rider number 2 starts and so on.

Often there will be no splits in the sections, everyone entered rides the same course. That was almost always true in the past, today there has been some American influence in England, they now have a split or two sometimes.

Big events like the Scottish Six Days however, everyone entered from you to Dougie Lampkin ride the same line in the same sections. Their award structure is also much differnt. Ask Ishy, for more details please.

Everytime I bring up how they do it in England I get yelled at, just like you did in your last post.

Remember Dan Brown's post? He mentioned that in Trials and Moto-Cross news there was 30 events over one weekend to choose from. If someone has to drive much more than and hour to ride a trial every weekend, they begin to complain about all the driving.

When I've spoke of trials getting popular in the USA, I've always meant that it was as popular as it is in England. Where you can ride an event or two every week if you please. Sometimes even three a week if there is a trial on

Wendsday evening. Of course within an hour or two drive of your house for the three events, just like in England.

Did I mention they don't use scorecards, the observers use a clipboard to keep your score?