lineaway Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) Exactly. IMO people like you make it confusing. PS No the OP does not need the clutch pop to get over it. A roll up with pressure and hold it till the front clears the next obstacle. Do you understand pressure? Edited January 31, 2018 by lineaway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacob429 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, lineaway said: Exactly. IMO people like you make it confusing. The OP didn't get confused by it. The majority of my audience has no idea what a zap is (non-trials riders). However I continuously refer to it as a japzap and explain the difference. We will have to agree to disagree on my approach (or not). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_orange Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 It is just semantics but it's much easier if people use the correct/same terms. As a novice I find it very confusing myself. So... a Roll Up is when you simply lighten the front and use throttle to ride up and over an obstacle. E.g. an 8 inch log A double blip is where you lift the front wheel into the obstacle and use a distinct second blip to drive the front wheel high so that the rear wheel rides up it without impacting the skid plate and without making the rear wheel hop off the ground. E.g. an 18 inch ledge A zap is a double blip with the assistance of the clutch and a more physical jump to get the rear wheel to hop into/onto the obstacle. E.g. an undercut ledge or big pipe. Is that close enough? They seem to bleed into each other and you can obviously use a double blip in the majority of cases. I've also read that the height at which you land the front wheel makes a difference in terms of lift and if traction is poor but are the basic techniques as above? Personally, I tend to do a zap without the clutch (or a double blip with rear wheel lift).. so I'm not sure what I should actually be practicing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 Almost. The roll up works on almost 99% of what you will ever ride. You still have to kiss the obstacle to clear the skid plate. It is done with momentum, preferably before the obstacle so the rear tire just tracks up. A double blip is a kiss off the obstacle with a bunny hop thrown in with a second blip. Yes , it gets the rear tire off the ground. Our suspension did not work that great when this technique came around. I learned it from a guy giving trials schools around the country. He did one for our club and stayed with my family for about four days. Three of us had private lessons. That was in July 1974. It did not have a name , we just learned the blip, kiss with the hop thrown in and another blip. The Jap Zap came along in 1990. The suspension was better, but no where near the modern bikes. You dropped the front wheel too low on a ledge, so low it seemed like you might crash. This really loaded up the suspension, so when you popped the clutch and went with the bike it really got some lift. As the bikes got better, you no longer needed to prime the suspension as hard. The Jap dropped off (political or just too long) and now the Zap is used with out much effert or loading the front tire. This is when the types started blending together. The worst thing for most new riders is they want to use the clutch, but make severe mistakes from using it too much. For the most part actually riding in a section you are better off points wise to leave the clutch alone. Most points for lower riders come from losing traction from the clutch. Now you are ready for a good third gear splatter. I bet you can figure out where the name comes from. You miss, you splatter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 My son 2 weeks ago. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacob429 Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 Yes you understand it well Orange, and I agree you can just double blip or roll up 99% of everything. Like you said the whole point is to clear the skid plate, so unless it's severely undercut you won't need the japzap. Without fixating on the terminology too much, I think folks will know what they want to accomplish vs their weaknesses, and find whatever technique solves that problem. I bet there are some who can execute these moves without knowing what they're called. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacob429 Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 22 hours ago, lineaway said: Exactly. IMO people like you make it confusing. PS No the OP does not need the clutch pop to get over it. A roll up with pressure and hold it till the front clears the next obstacle. Do you understand pressure? I never said he needed to pop the clutch to get over it. And yes, I also got into holding pressure. I am simply trying to share my knowledge of the specific maneuver the OP wants to learn. Not debating what the correct or ideal technique for that obstacle is, and in my very first or 2nd reply to the topic I mentioned the japzap wasn't necessary. You are taking everything I am saying out of context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) I was not going to say any more, but you keep going on. What knowledge do you have besides a camera and internet. Please tell us. Edited February 2, 2018 by lineaway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheepy Posted February 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 I appreciate all your help guys,but just to clear up... i posted a video of me trying to (jap) zap over the tyres,I under stand the term fully. I understand the obstacle can be cleared in many different ways and maybe a zap isn’t the perfect one,but as I’m practicing in my garden I only have these obstacles. I want to get the technique on these before I try it on something harder that will do damage to me or the bike if it goes wrong? Lineaway...you said that as the suspension setups got better it wasn’t so important to punch the ledge with the front wheel as hard? Do you think I am doing it hard enough? As it feels like I’m compressing and jumping as hard as I can and only getting about an inch of lift lol ps. Judging by Jacob429’s videos,he has way more experience than me,and can ride a lot better than me so any advice he has will help me thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacob429 Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 43 minutes ago, lineaway said: I was not going to say any more, but you keep going on. What knowledge do you have besides a camera and internet. Please tell us. I have already demonstrated what I know via camera and internet. I never claimed to have all the answers; I don't even claim to be a trials rider, and in a real section I doubt I would even be intermediate. But I do understand what Sheepy wants to accomplish and I know I can help him. Anyone who learns the technique I was demonstrating in my video will figure out through practice what the technique is used for and how to modify it for their situation regardless of terms used. All you have done was argue terminologies and provide history lessons. If you think you can do a better job (and I sincerely hope you could considering your extensive background and knowledge of trials history), then I invite you to make yourself useful and do so. I know my videos have helped dirt bike and trials riders alike. It really seems like you want to argue for the sake of arguing and I'm really starting to wonder why I'm encouraging it as I write this. 49 minutes ago, Sheepy said: I appreciate all your help guys,but just to clear up... i posted a video of me trying to (jap) zap over the tyres,I under stand the term fully. I understand the obstacle can be cleared in many different ways and maybe a zap isn’t the perfect one,but as I’m practicing in my garden I only have these obstacles. I want to get the technique on these before I try it on something harder that will do damage to me or the bike if it goes wrong? Lineaway...you said that as the suspension setups got better it wasn’t so important to punch the ledge with the front wheel as hard? Do you think I am doing it hard enough? As it feels like I’m compressing and jumping as hard as I can and only getting about an inch of lift lol ps. Judging by Jacob429’s videos,he has way more experience than me,and can ride a lot better than me so any advice he has will help me thanks! Sheepy, there is another thing you can try. Stand in front of the obstacle without the biking, facing the obstacle, feet about shoulder width apart or less. Now jump from the ground to the obstacle. Then go get on the bike and do the same thing on the bike. You are jumping up, and the bike follows you. With good body positioning, you can do it without a lot of throttle. It certainly is easier to get good lift with a harder pop of the clutch, but you can get pretty good lift without a lot of throttle as well with good technique. Keep practicing and keep filming yourself - being able to see what you're doing is the next best thing to having someone else there watching you. You will know when you get it right. Here's a very nice video demonstration, don't forget you can put youtube vids in slow motion depending on your platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacob429 Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Sheepy said: Shoot I can't edit my posts for some reason so apologies for spam. I forgot to mention one thing. Remember the other part to unloading and getting lift, aside from jumping, is getting off the throttle in time. Being on the throttle will make that tire want to stick to the ground. That's why it's a bunch easier to get the revs up and pop the clutch to release the power to get lift rather than throttle timing alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 Being you both have the same experince. I tend to think you are pushing your you tube video numbers on this website. Good luck Sheepy on learning trials from someone that has not ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacob429 Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 28 minutes ago, lineaway said: Being you both have the same experince. I tend to think you are pushing your you tube video numbers on this website. Good luck Sheepy on learning trials from someone that has not ever. Ahh, there it is. Perhaps that is the underlying gripe you seem to have with me. I don't care about video numbers, it doesn't do anything for me. It's just a little side hobby, and the main thing that keeps me going is knowing that my videos have helped other riders, and hearing from those folks. I monetized my channel out of curiosity, I knew I wouldn't make anything from it, and I haven't yet. 45 bucks give or take which I won't be able to claim because the minimum is $100 and the channel will be demonetized soon regardless, so that beer money is pretty much lost. I will still make how-to videos. But nice job on avoiding the challenge. So you're not going to try to help him perfect this technique and teach him the "right" way? I haven't even done a trial and yet I can apply the japzap and help others do so. You presumably have done many, and haven't provided all that much help. If your teaching approach works better for Sheepy, then I would seriously applaud you, because that's what this thread is supposed to be about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyc21 Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) Sheepy, something Jacob429 said reminded me that just like the jump on top without a bike your doing the same thing with the bike. When that clicked in my head I got it first attempt. It feels like your going to ram your hips into the bars, however what happens is that the bike moves forward as you do so you and the bike land on top with issue. Before that I was just jumping up, and thinking my forward movement was enough to carry me op and over. One of the hard parts of doing this on the round tire is that it's more difficult to punch the front tire into rather than set it on top or glance it off of the round portion of the tire. You will have better luck with a bit more revs and be faster with the clutch but that has other risks. Good luck. Edited February 2, 2018 by jonnyc21 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_orange Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 Sheepy - out of interest can you jump clean on top of it by using the double blip? I know you're trying to learn the zap but if you get the double blip first then you can add in the clutch. That way you can separate the jump and the clutch aspects and nail both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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