Observation

[Intotrials]

1 hour ago, nigel dabster said:

this is probably where the problem lies, being lenient is not always fair. I think it was last year that richard Sadler rode big Dars clean and no stop where as others paused and got the same score.

If observers are individually consistent its better but not really the answer.

This is a good example, I think consistency across the board is the key. But to truly achieve this then what ever rules are in place for the event should be adhered to, with no exception. The difficulty is enforcing those rules without facing conflict and abuse, and often interpreting them (as in - what is deemed as a stop).   

[baldilocks]

I agree with the difficulties you mentioned but there's a few more. 

Sections have to be possible to ride no stop.

Riders need to attempt the sections no stop and know that it' worth the risk as others will be fived for stopping in each and every sections.

[b40rt]

Consistently wrong is not the same as consistently right.

[Intotrials]

12 hours ago, b40rt said:

Consistently wrong is not the same as consistently right.

The rules then need to be adhered to the letter, no exception. 

[Intotrials]

12 hours ago, baldilocks said:

I agree with the difficulties you mentioned but there's a few more. 

Sections have to be possible to ride no stop.

Riders need to attempt the sections no stop and know that it' worth the risk as others will be fived for stopping in each and every sections.

When I'm out on my practicing I often try out sections with stop allowed and then no stop allowed. Amazingly if a section is well plotted its often quite surprising what can be achieved without stopping, when at times you may feel you need to stop. I have a section where I practice I have never cleaned. Its a very long and technical section and quite tight in places, I tend to stop and correct my self many times during attempts. A couple of weeks ago just for fun I attempted the section in 1st gear (there is quite a big step mid way so I usually do the section in 2nd) and tried to stay moving. To my surprise I manage to complete the section no stop and did it for a quick prod. Yes i had to scream the balls off the bike to get up the big step, but I found parts of the section easier without the stopping. I attempted the section again in 2nd without stopping but found the bike getting away from me and had to use the clutch more to tame the power just to stay in control without the stops.

I now ride this section no stop and I know there is a clean ride just around the corner as I only ever have the odd dab on it now. 

I enjoy both styles of riding, I love the trick riding, with the back wheel hops and the jumping from rock to rock, i'm pretty good at it for an older rider. But I also love the feeling of flowing methodically through a section, smoothly and in full control just floating over the terrain. But sometimes I find myself riding both styles to complete a section.

This is where the problem rises, how do you observer such a section if the rules are no stop? A brief momentary pause as you flick the bike can be very skillful and great to watch. As an observer how do you five a person for such an impressive ride even if they have stopped for a blink of an eye? 

Pre- trick riding days this wasn't a problem. But you can't undo progress, you have to adapt.     

[nigel dabster]

Tony Kaye from B and B i think is a fairly good rider and won his class some good few marks in front of Baldilocks (and even more me) in the Richmond no stop trial. One section he clearly stopped and then flicked the back around to create a better turn and clean the section. He definately stopped as it wasnt/isnt possible to keep the front moving when doing this but because he was moving he got a clean. this is where some problems arise.

However we arent talking about this we are saying some riders stop for seconds and line up then go, this is where you're saying SSDT observing seems to favour some over others?

[Intotrials]

21 minutes ago, nigel dabster said:

Tony Kaye from B and B i think is a fairly good rider and won his class some good few marks in front of Baldilocks (and even more me) in the Richmond no stop trial. One section he clearly stopped and then flicked the back around to create a better turn and clean the section. He definately stopped as it wasnt/isnt possible to keep the front moving when doing this but because he was moving he got a clean. this is where some problems arise.

However we arent talking about this we are saying some riders stop for seconds and line up then go, this is where you're saying SSDT observing seems to favour some over others?

Yes (my bold), sorry I've gone off the main topic slightly. 

Yes my initial grumble was that a top rider was witnessed by myself and also recorded on video to have blatantly fived a section under the no stop rules in the SSDT. I won't disclose any name because I suspect this person is not the only top rider to get away with it and my opinion will make no difference anyway. 

In the grand scheme of things it probably all evens out and maybe doesn't matter too much. But, I just felt on this particular occasion the offence was so blatant it made a mockery of the rules and was unfair for all the other riders.  Like I said, it took the shine off for me, especially as I have a lot of respect and admire the rider in question. 

[trapezeartist]

My own personal opinion is that a momentary stop where it's hard to discern whether it really was stop or not, is perfectly acceptable. For instance for the time the back wheel is off the ground during a rear wheel hop, provided the bike start moving again immediately  after landing the back wheel. Whatever, I think it would help if all observers at an event were briefed on what is expected of them, and all competitors should be told what that expectation is.

[nigel dabster]

8 hours ago, trapezeartist said:

My own personal opinion is that a momentary stop where it's hard to discern whether it really was stop or not, is perfectly acceptable. For instance for the time the back wheel is off the ground during a rear wheel hop, provided the bike start moving again immediately  after landing the back wheel. Whatever, I think it would help if all observers at an event were briefed on what is expected of them, and all competitors should be told what that expectation is.

i think no one does as it then condones the stop no stop rule that is the btc farce.

[baldilocks]

But how does the rider know how lenient the observer is before entering the section ? 

BTC has a riders briefing which is a good idea.

[wizardofos]

A couple of points:

Many, many riders ask for a 5. I have observed sections where up to 100 have done this. When a rider has a bona fide attempt and gets through this section (or any other), with what "knowledgeable spectators" might consider to be a momentary pause, they are going to get the benefit of the doubt from me. I therefore extend the same basis of judgement to all competitors.

I have observed other sections where, with what "knowledgeable spectators" might consider to be a momentary pause, I would have recorded 260+ fives.

When riding myself ('84 to '98), my daily score was always a bit less than I expected, so there's nothing new in this. It's the spirit of the Scottish.

As an observer every year since, the only thing I dread is being given a section with lots of "knowledgeable spectators". The riders know what its about.

[baldilocks]

From a professional riders point of view the current situation must be a nightmare.

Riders of all levels should be able to practice to a reasonable approximation of how they are observed at an event but this differs week to week whereas it should be consistent.

If you consider what its like for James Dabill and others who have in recent weeks ridden a British Championship Round, the six days and then the opening world round. 

These guys only know how they will be observed by watching how the observer treats the riders before them, what are they supposed to do if they are first ?

Ride proper no stop will be the over 50s response but actually if the observer is subsequently lenient they may well have incurred a dab or a five that they may have got away with if they had balanced to recover or hopped back onto line.

we cant have the situation of years gone by where in the WTC riders were taking over 5 mins to ride a section and the six days was struggling due to the number of delays each day.

is something like 2 seconds permitted to stop reasonable, which is what many actually observe ? Not on a stop watch, the observer counts in his / her head or shouts ?

 

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by baldilocks

[2stroke4stroke]

In the days when I observed at the Scottish we were briefed that scores were not to be revealed to riders or spectators, only to other officials or accredited Press, so no problems with "knowledgeable spectators" or over excited riders.   Has that changed?

It was known that some observers had "favoured riders" with more local observers being firm but fair to all.  Even in those days before every man and his dog had a camera it was not an easy job.

I did however witness an example of poor (and unfair to preceding riders) observing this year.  A winner from a few years ago, as it happens (but not this year's winner), pitched up at a section and, having ascertained that the observer was a pal from his locality, proceeded to move two very large awkwardly placed boulders from his chosen line with no subtlety whatsoever.  I half jokingly asked the observer what the penalty for that was (it's classed as a failure and therefore a 5 in Standing Regs in case you wondered) to be met with a silent scowl. No doubt from which to give benefit in this case.

There's nobody on here, including me, who hasn't put a foot on a rock in the hope it might move but taking the p*** is something different and should be dealt with accordingly.  I recall such an incident years ago on Pipeline where, every time the observer's back was turned to view a competitor, a rider moved a rock, then the observer put it back.  This went on for a while until an onlooking Steward took the rider's number and he was called to appear before the panel that evening.  I daresay he was more circumspect for the rest of the week.

With reference to no stop I have been very impressed, since the rule change, with younger riders' ability to flick the back end round on the front brake whilst still maintaining revolution of the front wheel.

[Intotrials]

7 hours ago, 2stroke4stroke said:

In the days when I observed at the Scottish we were briefed that scores were not to be revealed to riders or spectators, only to other officials or accredited Press, so no problems with "knowledgeable spectators" or over excited riders.   Has that changed?

It was known that some observers had "favoured riders" with more local observers being firm but fair to all.  Even in those days before every man and his dog had a camera it was not an easy job.

I did however witness an example of poor (and unfair to preceding riders) observing this year.  A winner from a few years ago, as it happens (but not this year's winner), pitched up at a section and, having ascertained that the observer was a pal from his locality, proceeded to move two very large awkwardly placed boulders from his chosen line with no subtlety whatsoever.  I half jokingly asked the observer what the penalty for that was (it's classed as a failure and therefore a 5 in Standing Regs in case you wondered) to be met with a silent scowl. No doubt from which to give benefit in this case.

There's nobody on here, including me, who hasn't put a foot on a rock in the hope it might move but taking the p*** is something different and should be dealt with accordingly.  I recall such an incident years ago on Pipeline where, every time the observer's back was turned to view a competitor, a rider moved a rock, then the observer put it back.  This went on for a while until an onlooking Steward took the rider's number and he was called to appear before the panel that evening.  I daresay he was more circumspect for the rest of the week.

With reference to no stop I have been very impressed, since the rule change, with younger riders' ability to flick the back end round on the front brake whilst still maintaining revolution of the front wheel.

I agree with you entirely, what I witnessed was a p*** take this was the reason for my original posting. I know how tough it can be to observe, I have done so on many occasions. Being a rider myself I tend to give most riders the benefit of the doubt, I'm quite lenient if the section is a tough one (maybe I'm wrong to do that). But I won't favor any particular rider/s, its only fair to everyone to be consistent. 

A friend of mine observed at the world round a few years back. He fived Bou for stopping, there was hell to pay but he stood to his guns to the disgruntlement of the spectators. The five was overruled by officials later in the comp for being "too harsh". I don't necessarily blame the observers as it can be a nightmare job at times. But in the case I mentioned which happened to be at the SSDT, it was a blatant failure of the section, which many other lesser riders had completed clean. I felt this was totally unfair to everyone.     

[b40rt]

Can anyone name another sport where competitors and officials make-up the rules as they go along, and still have an overall winner at the conclusion ?