‘18 popping out of gear

[Sir Real Ed]

On 5/4/2019 at 6:48 PM, dan williams said:

I’m worried the spring might get cocked sideways and act weird. I know that’s poorly said. I also only have the machining capability afforded by a vice and a dremel. It’s easier (but not cheaper) to farm it out to eMachineshop. Oh well that’s what the day job is for. To pay for what I want to play with.

Day three out with the custom indexer and still flawless. Starting to get my confidence back. Modifying the pin to flip the bearing will probably be my last modification on this issue. Already over $900 in the hole. But I’se gotsta know.?

But I’m back to lovin’ my bike again and how much is that worth?

I understand completely...... but..... that's why god made hand files.  To "square up" or "fix" all the sh*t that isn't done by a real machine shop.  A dial caliper, a magic marker and a file can fix a lot of f**k ups.  But, as long as you're in love again, that's what really matters.

Think of all your time, expenses, and tinkering as the foreplay in a long term, meaningful relationship.?

[dan williams]

Bag ‘o cams. Wonder if they’ll work.

[dan williams]

So update on the gear popping fun. I put in the custom indexer with the 13mm bearing on the stock cam to try it out for a few months and it didn't pop out of gear into neutral except for the few half hearted loop stabs at the shifter that weren't really properly done. My intent was to ride the final event in June and tear the bike down to install the custom cam during a lull here in July. The bike had other ideas as my failure to use Loctite on the screw holding the cam caused said screw to back out chewing up the rivets on the back side of the clutch the day before the event. So off came the clutch basket and the stock cam. I also pulled the pin the indexer pivots on. So changes made (after cleaning up the back of the clutch basket)  A new indexer with a 14mm bearing replacing the 13mm bearing that worked for the stock cam profile. I shortened the case facing side of the pivot pin by ~2mm (as suggested by guy53) so the bearing rides more fully on the cam profile. This should help with bearing wear. Install custom cam (yes I left neutral between 1-2). Bolt it back up and ride. After about four hours on the bike yesterday the shifting is perfect. You can hear the gearbox snap into gear. Not like the stock cam which seems to go in rather lazily. Effort to shift seems unchanged which surprises me as I thought it would be harder. With the neutral pedestal higher on this cam, neutral is still a pain to find. Can't really get it from first but a light tap from second finds it fairly consistently. Certainly no worse than the stock cam. So I'm going to run this setup for a few weeks to properly vet its performance. After I'll tear it apart again to check that things are behaving. Something I should have done before but... I have one other custom part being fabricated. Rather than cutting down the pivot pin I'm having a spacer made to flip the bearing on the indexer to fully engage the cam lobes. This pivot spacer will sit on a bolt that screws into the hole where the pivot pin now sits. There should be enough clearance. While I have it apart I'll properly fix the backside of the clutch assembly since all I did was clean up the scratched bits with a polishing stone. I know, lazy, but I wanted to ride some.

The difference in the custom cam is a higher neutral pedestal, deeper lows and the top of the lobes are flat (relative to the center) so the profile is steeper. There are also extra holes allowing neutral to be put between any two gears. The custom indexer has a slightly deeper reach so the spring has more preload than normal.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by dan williams
Credit where credit is due

[Sir Real Ed]

Excellent information Dan.  Thanks for keeping us up to date.  I look forward to future updates.

With such a small neutral "detent," it is not surprising that neutral is hard to find.  But obviously, making the detent bigger, makes it more prone to jumping out of gear.  A smaller diameter bearing might help, but there might not be a great deal of improvement left to gain.  Since we all talking about feel, it is hard to quantify.

Don't get discouraged.  Keep up the good work. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Sir Real Ed

[dan williams]

Two days with the new cam and 14mm bearing. Awesome! Shifting effort is slightly higher but when the shift is initiated the gearbox snaps into gear with an audible click. Neutral can be found easily with a light tap from second. Almost impossible to find from first. Now to run it for a while to check reliability. 

[dan williams]

Ah the machined spacer to let me flip the indexer bearing arm has arrived. 

And my wife is in the garage installing a Rekluse in her KLX 140G. It’s good to have an engineer wife who enjoys wrenching.

My wench with a wrench?

Edited July 16, 2019 by dan williams

[stpauls]

My then NEW 2014 Beta Evo 250 used to jump out of first or second gear sometimes, mid section, even though I had not touched the gear lever.   It did this from new.  I kept it for about a year then totally fed up I sold it and bought a Sherco.  I thought Beta had sorted it, but I was chatting to a chap a few weeks ago whose year old Beta 300 was jumping out of gear, mid section, without him going near the gear lever, so obviously not.

At that time the thinking was that in an effort to save weight, Beta had made the selector fork out of steel that was so thin that it was flexing, so not fully engaging the gear.

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by stpauls
poor grammar

[dan williams]

Yeah I talked to a friend Sunday with a new 200 that mentioned his has started jumping out of gear occasionally. Just like mine he said it was great to start with but over time it’s starting to be more prevalent.. I don’t think the custom cam and reverse spacer is necessary. They are just test vehicles for me. Replacing the bearing and machining down the pivot pin to align the bearing with the cam are all that appears to be needed.

[dan williams]

Obsessed? Me? No, why do you ask?

 

[Sir Real Ed]

10 hours ago, dan williams said:

Obsessed? Me? No, why do you ask?

 

That's not an obsession, that's a healthy, family bonding activity........  So, IIRC, the end result (so far...) is a 14 mm diameter bearing instead of a 13 mm diameter bearing that is moved towards the center of the engine to allow more bearing/contact area with the cam.  Is this correct? 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Sir Real Ed

[dan williams]

Still experimenting but the 13mm bearing seems to work well with the stock cam. (As long as the idiot installing it uses loctite on the screws) I have the 14mm bearing in now with the custom cam and it’s really good. I will try the 16mm bearing with the reverse indexer next time I get around to cracking it open.

Unfortunately unlike the clutch fix this one requires some parts swapping.

Edited July 21, 2019 by dan williams

[dan williams]

I heard the same reason but it never made sense to me. Once the gear is chased into engagement there is minimal torque to deflect the shift forks. One other thing that was suspect is wear on the drum causing play in the fork tracks. Since  installing the uprated bearing/arm in my bike stopped it popping out of gear without changing any internal gearbox components I’m now fairly certain it’s simply a crappy bearing/too light pressure/low cam lobe issue. Fix any one and it improves dramatically. Fix all three and it’s pretty solid so far.

Anybody else want to give it a try?

[lineaway]

 Yeah, you were closer with the Beta clutch fix.(You got 166 thousand views!) Which still is not the problem. It is clutch drag that can be fixed with the proper shims. Cheap, under ten dollars and less than 20 minutes work. You have less than a dozen guys interested in the NEW FIX.

[dan williams]

So, you don’t want one?  ?

[lineaway]

It has made for an interesting thread Dan. Thanks!