Whats gone wrong with Trials.

[pre65wobbler]

We all are well aware of pre65 bike specifications, and we all accept that there are pre65 bikes and 'pre65' bikes. We just accept that some are genuine, and most are not.

It's the venue's and the named 'Clerk of the Course' that we trust to get the sections right for all concerned. Sad to say, we learn through experience who to trust for a great day's sport, and those events best to steer clear of. 

Another probable cause of poor pre65 entries lately, could be the weight of the machines....now we know there are few genuine pre65's on the scene....why hump a 300lb+ bike around when you could be wobbling around on a lightweight.  OK for young hunkies...not so good for OAP's..............OAP's who CAN'T...and more importantly.... DON'T WANT.......to give up riding their treasured plonkers......

[old trials fanatic]

Just my two pennorth FWIW. 

Assuming there are more than two routes then how about this.

On the easiest of routes only then the winner of the Club Championship has to move up to the next class the following year and cant drop back. 

One proviso if they are insistent on riding the easiest route then they score 0 Championship points so just ride for the fun of it. 

My old club had 5 routes, 3 in the sections as two were 50/50 routes, so there was a route above the easy route which rode 4 or 5 of the easier Intermediate sections and 5 or 6 of the easiest sections.

Worth a try as the new season creeps over the horizon ? 

[collyolly]

Back in the good old days we had one route to ride ( just before my time ) then we had 2 routes to enable the novices to still ride the same event as the more experianced riders then known as experts.

To become an expert you had to win a number of novice trials or come in the top 10% I think of the results of an open trial, anyway it was an achievement to go up to the top class and I think it took a number off years for most enthusiastic riders.

Lots has changed since then, mainly the bikes have got so good they almost ride themselves compared to original bikes from the 70's.

More importantly the skill set has changed and the riders have got older

Tomorrow we have a 'group' trial down here in Kent/East Sussex on one of our best pieces of natural terrain, so good we do actually have a one route trial here once a year and it is always a great success. BUT to keep everyone happy tomorrow's trial has effectively 6 routes ( 4 routes with a further 2 which are combinations as suggested above) and according to the online entry system there is only 34 advance entries for it and they are broken into 12 classes. Take those numbers in,        lots of routes, lots of classes but few committed riders , what needs to be done to kick start this sport ?

 

 

[cleanorbust]

Round my way the clubman route I'd normally ride is usually won on low single figures, sometimes clean. Nobody seems to complain. If I had a problem with that I'd just have to ride a bit better to get closer to the winner.

[brian0304]

As an aside, I happened to glance at this weeks ‘Angler’s Mail’, and they too are wondering where the next wave of participants will come from. Rod licences are down 40% from 6/7 yrs ago. I wonder if there’s a generation who are sat staring into phones and missing the world go by..

[nigel dabster]

11 hours ago, collyolly said:

Back in the good old days we had one route to ride ( just before my time ) then we had 2 routes to enable the novices to still ride the same event as the more experianced riders then known as experts.

To become an expert you had to win a number of novice trials or come in the top 10% I think of the results of an open trial, anyway it was an achievement to go up to the top class and I think it took a number off years for most enthusiastic riders.

Lots has changed since then, mainly the bikes have got so good they almost ride themselves compared to original bikes from the 70's.

More importantly the skill set has changed and the riders have got older

Tomorrow we have a 'group' trial down here in Kent/East Sussex on one of our best pieces of natural terrain, so good we do actually have a one route trial here once a year and it is always a great success. BUT to keep everyone happy tomorrow's trial has effectively 6 routes ( 4 routes with a further 2 which are combinations as suggested above) and according to the online entry system there is only 34 advance entries for it and they are broken into 12 classes. Take those numbers in,        lots of routes, lots of classes but few committed riders , what needs to be done to kick start this sport ?

 

 

The bikes have got better but an entrant into the sport is no more capable than in 1975, regardless (pretty much) how good his bike is.

This is the reason we have so many routes and skill levels.

I do also think back in the day we were happy to lose 125 trying to be best novice, now they want to lose one.

[faussy]

Trials isn't necessarily harder these days but for similar hardness on better bikes the sections are more dangerous. Some clubmen may be capable to ride a harder grade but they aren't prepared to ride sections that are more likely to end in injury. Semi expert today probably has the same size if not bigger rocks as expert did back in the 70s 

But I agree, it's a race to the bottom, in my club the bottom grades have the biggest entries

Edited October 14, 2018 by faussy

[paddockman]

Sadly I quit many years ago. I went to a superb North East club that run a 'beginners' trial. Some entrants removed their last 'expert' numbers on red card from previous trials and returned cleans throughout. Same on the clubman routes at normal trials. Sections became harder - or moreover more dangerous, grading should be the norm by now to give everyone an incentive.

On the bike modification, there is an ethical point. A modern bike can be changed as much as you like but if you're looking to balance out the field on pre-65 or twin shock then it should be utilising equipment from the era. Nothing better than a couple of Majesty TY's and Fantic 200's to stir a memory or better still some of the fantastic Sherpa T's v Cota 348's

[thai-ty]

On 10/13/2018 at 6:25 PM, collyolly said:

You have to ask 'What does the ACU ( or any governing body) do for us ?'

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Edited October 14, 2018 by thai-ty

[Twinshockandy]

16 hours ago, brian0304 said:

As an aside, I happened to glance at this weeks ‘Angler’s Mail’, and they too are wondering where the next wave of participants will come from. Rod licences are down 40% from 6/7 yrs ago. I wonder if there’s a generation who are sat staring into phones and missing the world go by..

Certainly think you could well be right..............also, and this idea has already been raised elsewhere is, as sections are getting much more technical than previously, (where in section one was riding against natural features) certainly anyone with a little interest looking at what trials is about today, may well be put off by the acrobatics needed to ride modern sections. Quite a few area's have ground that for a long time had been used to lay out challenging - but safe sections, now not being used as its not technical (hard) enough for the types of machinery being ridden, be it twin shock/per 65 etc.

Interesting topic,

[section swept]

I’ve put some thought to this as it has been a concern for sometime, and as quite a few have posted similar musings here’s my input. Land is not so readily available as it used to be, housing and industrial sites eat into the green belt and other land. Then with the do gooders, environmentalists, walkers and horse riders etc complaining about pathways...( pictures of tracks churned up by off-roaders legitimately using the correct routes....which makes walking difficult...always surface at the right moment). Next the land owners aware of theses issues preferring to abstain from allowing their land to be used, all makes suitable sites for trials very limited. Those land owners that understand what actually is involved with trials events generously allow a limited number within their own constraints eg noise close to housing, game bird sites etc etc. Sometime back whilst testing a race car at Bruntigthorpe we got told to keep it slow on the corners because tyre noise...I’ll say that again..tyre noise was annoying some one in a house close to the circuit or more correctly...runway. So even if everyone used electric bikes there’d probably be a reason for a complaint, in the land owners case an irritant they don’t need, so it goes on. Trials events have been cancelled for various reasons so land suitable for trialing is becoming precious, if different sections and terrain are to be offered then we need to be involving more land owners in some productive way so the both parties can benefit. Maybe clubs could get involved with other events and open days and put on static displays with video action to show the general public what our sport is all about, a few members could show their bikes and riding kit hopefully encouraging some parents to consider the safest introduction to motorcycle sport and riding, possibly also reaching others to. As a bike dealer I’ve attended, schools open day events with bikes and clothing examples and any other marketing material, if it just interests a few it’s worth the effort. Attending College events also widens the appeal. Then we have the local events and promotions that clubs could get involved with....casting the net wider. Then perhaps we should adopt, as already suggested, a grading system whereby you have to start as a novice ( no matter how good a wobbler you are) and compete in and finish in at least four trials. The club would issue a competitor card that would be signed off after each completed event by the clerk of the course..it’s just a suggestion, someone else as a named signatory could do it...this same process would be repeated for intermediate and then expert. Within twelve events it would be possible to achieve expert status. Any rider not wanting to go forward from let’s say intermediate would simply withdraw from an event by either machine fault or missing out a section, it’s left up to the riders discretion if they progress up the levels. It wouldn’t matter if the rider was on a tiddler or a full on works replica or a pre-65 etc the same grading would apply. Current riders could use previous results to declare rider status as either novice, intermediate or expert. They would have the same grading card either completed to the level chosen or left open so that they can elect if they wanted to progress. The trials events would have just the one course made up of a group of sections, experts must ride all sections, reason later, intermediates have the option of riding all sections or not attempting the sections marked as expert the novices would only ride those sections marked as novice. All sections would be marked with signs stating the words novice, intermediate etc so there is no confusion. Similarly the bike would have novice or intermediate on the competitor number board, experts would be marked the same.This last suggestion might not be practicable. However as there will be more expert sections the novices would have the time and be able to watch some or most of the sections being attempted by the experts, it would be the same for the intermediates and thus a learning pattern develops where every rider is showing others riders how to approach and ride the different sections, an expert completing a novice section would give benefit to a nervous novice. So this brings up the issue of sections being reached by road (public highway), some riders don’t want to ride on the road for various reasons which would be understandable. In this case the overall winners in all three classes would be those who have ridden all sections including those reached by riding legally on the road, these riders would be awarded a full win. Those winning riders that only rode the sections not reached by riding on the road (public highway) would be awarded a classified win. This would not take away the obvious pride in winning an expert full win, intermediate full win and a novice full win and likewise the riders who hadn’t competed over the full course could still achieve a classified novice win, intermediate classified win and an expert classified win. This may not sit well with some but it’s my contribution borne about by just reminiscing about trials in the 60’s and 70’s when it seemed every single trials iron was registered for the road, most had rudimentary lights and a squeeze bulb horn and nearly every trial involved road work to get to some of the sections. A lot of those bikes were also workhorses being used to get to and from work as well as being thrown about in trials. 

I hope there’s some useful ideas here, open for criticism constructive or entertaining ?‍???

[b40rt]

On 13/10/2018 at 12:34 PM, trialsrider46 said:

Good post. Hence the reason many riders are now attending clubs that do actually cater for the less skilled/easier trials. These clubs are more often than not  over subscribed with entries. Both the clubs I refer to Dabbers and Acorn are very rideable and enjoyed by all who attend but they are not ACU.

Maybe somebody should start to listen. 

Ultimate irony, you completely  ignore posts that deviate from "your" vision. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by b40rt

[brian0304]

I presume you’re all on about riders classes in Championships, as otherwise it makes no difference who rides where surely ? We all know who’s any good or has similar skills to ourselves, I just judge my day on how I’ve got in compared to those riders I know are of equal ability . If someone fancies riding an easier class, I don’t see any problem unless there’s a trophy on offer

[johnnyboxer]

11 hours ago, nigel dabster said:

 

I do also think back in the day we were happy to lose 125 trying to be best novice, now they want to lose one.

Nail on head

Back in the day, scores were higher for Clubman on one route trials and you just worked at it and moved up to Non Expert from a novice

If you were a good Non Expert you could move to Expert

Nowadays if you drop 30 at a club trial it's too hard

[Twinshockandy]

3 hours ago, section swept said:

I’ve put some thought to this as it has been a concern for sometime, and as quite a few have posted similar musings here’s my input. Land is not so readily available as it used to be, housing and industrial sites eat into the green belt and other land. Then with the do gooders, environmentalists, walkers and horse riders etc complaining about pathways...( pictures of tracks churned up by off-roaders legitimately using the correct routes....which makes walking difficult...always surface at the right moment). Next the land owners aware of theses issues preferring to abstain from allowing their land to be used, all makes suitable sites for trials very limited. Those land owners that understand what actually is involved with trials events generously allow a limited number within their own constraints eg noise close to housing, game bird sites etc etc. Sometime back whilst testing a race car at Bruntigthorpe we got told to keep it slow on the corners because tyre noise...I’ll say that again..tyre noise was annoying some one in a house close to the circuit or more correctly...runway. So even if everyone used electric bikes there’d probably be a reason for a complaint, in the land owners case an irritant they don’t need, so it goes on. Trials events have been cancelled for various reasons so land suitable for trialing is becoming precious, if different sections and terrain are to be offered then we need to be involving more land owners in some productive way so the both parties can benefit. Maybe clubs could get involved with other events and open days and put on static displays with video action to show the general public what our sport is all about, a few members could show their bikes and riding kit hopefully encouraging some parents to consider the safest introduction to motorcycle sport and riding, possibly also reaching others to. As a bike dealer I’ve attended, schools open day events with bikes and clothing examples and any other marketing material, if it just interests a few it’s worth the effort. Attending College events also widens the appeal. Then we have the local events and promotions that clubs could get involved with....casting the net wider. Then perhaps we should adopt, as already suggested, a grading system whereby you have to start as a novice ( no matter how good a wobbler you are) and compete in and finish in at least four trials. The club would issue a competitor card that would be signed off after each completed event by the clerk of the course..it’s just a suggestion, someone else as a named signatory could do it...this same process would be repeated for intermediate and then expert. Within twelve events it would be possible to achieve expert status. Any rider not wanting to go forward from let’s say intermediate would simply withdraw from an event by either machine fault or missing out a section, it’s left up to the riders discretion if they progress up the levels. It wouldn’t matter if the rider was on a tiddler or a full on works replica or a pre-65 etc the same grading would apply. Current riders could use previous results to declare rider status as either novice, intermediate or expert. They would have the same grading card either completed to the level chosen or left open so that they can elect if they wanted to progress. The trials events would have just the one course made up of a group of sections, experts must ride all sections, reason later, intermediates have the option of riding all sections or not attempting the sections marked as expert the novices would only ride those sections marked as novice. All sections would be marked with signs stating the words novice, intermediate etc so there is no confusion. Similarly the bike would have novice or intermediate on the competitor number board, experts would be marked the same.This last suggestion might not be practicable. However as there will be more expert sections the novices would have the time and be able to watch some or most of the sections being attempted by the experts, it would be the same for the intermediates and thus a learning pattern develops where every rider is showing others riders how to approach and ride the different sections, an expert completing a novice section would give benefit to a nervous novice. So this brings up the issue of sections being reached by road (public highway), some riders don’t want to ride on the road for various reasons which would be understandable. In this case the overall winners in all three classes would be those who have ridden all sections including those reached by riding legally on the road, these riders would be awarded a full win. Those winning riders that only rode the sections not reached by riding on the road (public highway) would be awarded a classified win. This would not take away the obvious pride in winning an expert full win, intermediate full win and a novice full win and likewise the riders who hadn’t competed over the full course could still achieve a classified novice win, intermediate classified win and an expert classified win. This may not sit well with some but it’s my contribution borne about by just reminiscing about trials in the 60’s and 70’s when it seemed every single trials iron was registered for the road, most had rudimentary lights and a squeeze bulb horn and nearly every trial involved road work to get to some of the sections. A lot of those bikes were also workhorses being used to get to and from work as well as being thrown about in trials. 

I hope there’s some useful ideas here, open for criticism constructive or entertaining ?‍???

Some good, interesting idea's to ponder;