Loop Scoring...would This Work?

[ridgrunr]

I do appreciate all your responses guys. The more I think about it, the more I know you are right, it's too complicated. Gotta keep it simple. Heck, Trials riders can't even count to 5...1,2,3,5.

I do like the idea of self scoring that some of you advised. Sure wouldn't be any worse than what we are doing now. Thanks for your input!

I think I still like this part though:

Scoring could be further streamlined by not having each rider carry a score card that the scorer would have to punch. Instead, each rider would be assigned a number as they sign up. A 3X5 card with their number and class letter would be taped to their number plate. 28A would indicate rider #28 who rides the Advanced lines. 16N would indicate rider #16 who rides the Novice lines. This would help the scorer know what line the rider is going to ride, and which rider to mark the score for. The scorers would have a sheet with three columns, and 32 numbered lines (32 riders). As each rider comes through his section, the scorer simply writes down the score the rider got on each loop instead of having to chase down the rider so he could punch the riders card. This would save a lot of time running around by both rider and scorer.

Edited January 5, 2006 by Ridgrunr

[totalshell]

why dont you just observe for the guy in front and hand the board to the guy behind when its your turn to ride...

everybody gets to ride everybody gets to observe,,,

[bikespace]

I'll add my reply from a UK perspective only. Can't say how our ways would fit in with what you do.

Firstly - your riders must be more intelligent than ours to get it to work Most (99%) of our trials are fully observed by parents/friends/family etc so there is nothing complicated, but you tell half the riders to start at section 1 and half at section 6 and even that can cause questions and problems

One thing that happens at less well supported UK trials is there are observers where possible, but on sections which cannot be manned, the punch (or observers board) is left there tied to a tree or stake. Riders ride the section and then take over observing. Most riders will see 3 or 4 riders through, and most take their fair turn. Punch cards are easier for this because they can't just ride off. Sections need to be marked out hopefully to be seen from the ends flags.

Another advantage is observers can pick up a punch and mark for a while and then move on when they get bored or hungry or cold.

There's always a chance that somebody tries to cheat - but lay down the rules and the penalties for cheating at the start of the event (exclusion for the rest of your club events) and the rest is down to the people involved.

Bit disappointing to hear about a possible niche problem. That's one thing I've never noticed in any trial ever in over 30 years in UK. I've done loads of sports and it remains to be one of the least snobby, best behaved sports I've seen. Maybe that is a problem brought in by group marking.

[dman]

In the NETA series we require our riders to work or be an observer or event maker/helper of some sort for one event. Every rider needs to do this to be eligible for championship points. This usually gets each event a handful of "steady" checkers/observers. Then the rest is up to the club, family, friends, and people we kidnap... I mean persuade off the street. It does help that we have a few maybe 4-6 clubs under the NETA organization. So each club does get people to check faithfully each year.

Anyways, then our riders do drop their 3 lowest finishes, including the worked event so its the two lowest so people can work two more events if they like. I wouldn't know what to do in other places however, because of our unique setup, we can get clubs to form the observer base.

[atomant]

Most (99%) of our trials are fully observed by parents/friends/family etc so there is nothing complicated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Following on from what Bikespace has said on this, we have a lot of youth riders at our events and this helps as they have parents with them and to help the financial burden, if they observe, then their son/daughter gets a free ride. Normally if there is a burger van on site, we offer a free lunch as well. This to be honest works very well.

Also, in a big event like the Novogar that Bikespace's club ran last year, all other clubs in the area joined together to help on the day and it was a big success.

[martinh]

I think everyone has difficulty getting the required help, not just in terms of observing but also all the hard work that goes in to helping lay out and remove sections.

In the North Kent Trials Combine, it is a rule that you must help out at your own hosted event and I think one other event in the year. Failure to do this excludes you from gaining championship points.

Personally, when her in doors and my job allows, I really enjoy helping the club setting out sections when ever I can. OK, I don't observe much, but I guess my time will come when my aching bones tell me that I should ride less and observe more. What I have noticed it is usually the same group of people that are there to help out week in week out, and clubs should try and do more (and it seems the only way left it through imposing conditions through removing points etc) to get people to do more to help. As is so often said, without the help of these people, none of us would be riding!

[scorpa3]

After years of worrying about finding observers, I personally enjoy setting out and organising club trials a lot more now I just put the boards out at each setion at the start time.

The riders either observe each other or observe the rider behind/infront. It's amazing how this takes the pressure off the organiser. If the riders cheat.... they cheat.

Most of us ride/organise for fun. Why should it become a chore? I just enjoy being out on my bike with lots of friends.

And trials is so so inexpensive compared with other forms of motorsport.

[mich lin]

Going along with what Scorpa3 suggested, our local club the ITS has a ton of events each year. Bill Markem sets up each and everyone of these trials with a desire to supliment his retirement income.

This man enjoys what he does and works tirelessly, of course observers are the biggest problem for him. what he does is offer anyone $20 to observe his 3 lap 5 section course trial, which usally takes only a couple hours. Then when there is not enough observers he simply does what Scorpa3 has suggested. Puts the punch on a stake at the end of the section and we self check.

Do the riders cheat? Maybe, but who really cares! We are not riding the world championship, which dose not even have professional officals and observers yet either. Trials is not world cup football, its sportsmen fun, even at a world championship level at this time in history.

[alan bechard]

Ridge, greatly respect the work that you do and the ideas you put forth, but I think this one will end up too complicated to execute well.

I tried just a shotgun start like in golf. We gave you a section number that you started at every loop (very small loop, easy to start in the middle of) and you started there each time. That way, all 10 sections were fully occupied and the riders groups were spread out so that they would hopefully flow along smoothly.

You would be amazed how jacked up this got.

The sum of it was at the end when trying to resolve a tie breaker, "Oh, well I was told to start on section 3 but decided I wanted to do section 6 then start on 1" And I went Can you say "RIDE OFF"

Several folks did not like not riding will all the other (fill in the class) riders to see what lines they used.

I think it is a good idea, but I believe that if it takes more than a line or two to explain it, you will start having problems.

Please, please, please do not feel like I am just poking holes in your thoughts, I think it is how we will progress the sport by looking at other ways of doing things, I just personally do not think I could pull that one off.

[trialsurfer]

For years we in the FTA did observed scoring (work 2 events for end of year) and it worked well (also no "Bonus" checking or other BS),but with the rising cost of fuel this year we went to peer scoring with the classes riding pretty much with each other, and it has been very successful so far. We added more time to the overall time limit as it takes a little longer this way, and we also use the Shotgun start. For the 1st loop everyone rides together with some breaking off into smaller groups for the succesive loops. Also we send a few more experienced riders out with the beginner and novice classes.

We have found so far that our attendence has been better with riders being able to ride the event instead of checking, and we also seem to have more workers showing up to set up sections. After this season we will re-evaluate our success with this and decide if we will continue.

As a sidenote our Fun in the Sun 2-day will be run as a section observer trial as it has been for the last 25+ years on the 1st weekend of Daytona Bike Week!

[atomant]

Gotta be as simple as simple gets I reckon. As an idea, If you could trust everyone, you could give all the riders a thumb batch counter on a piece of string to hang round their necks inside their tops like a punch card. They ride the section, click up the score then at the end of the trial write in their scores and done. no observers needed . Would work for fun club trials I reckon.

Ok you have to buy the thumbwheels but there not expensive and the rider could buy their own and use it for the year.

How simple is that?

If someone blatantly cheats, they get kicked out of the club or blacklisted for 6 months or something.

something like this.

As another idea and using the golf system, you could go round with someone as a pair, watch the other rider and click up his score and he does the same for you.

That way you have independent observation.

Only thing on the downside is you get an overall score for the day and not broken down into sections.! but does that matter for a fun trial?

[eric23]

We do the split groups scoring unless the weather is really bad then we switch over to peer scoring. They both have their pros and cons. With the split groups you get to ride at your own pace, take breaks as necessary and not hold up your buddies if mechanical problems arise. We split our groups by classes with the lower riders scoring the advanced riders and vis versa. One big advantage for the lower skilled riders is you get very good advice from the advanced riders checking. It does make for a very long day however when you consider that the event runs from 9:00am thru 4:30pm with a trophy presentation and a 2-3 hour drive. When we do peer scoring the groups are assembled from riders in different classes to eliminate questions. Families are kept together when practical. One very big advantage with this system is that you get to meet riders you ordinarily wouldn't spend much time with. The event is over about 2 hours earlier. The problem is that you have to ride with the group and the pace may not be suitable to all of the riders. Some guys like to take it very deliberate, walk each section every loop, other guys run it like an MX race. A bigger problem is if one member of the group has a mechanical problem. I agree that the system of assigning numbers on the loop scoring system is only going to cause greater confusion in the long run. The more I think of it, the idea of putting a punch at each section and have each rider score the bloke behind you makes a lot of sense, I do think that if you went with a system of this type you would have to relax cut-off times and associated penalties.

[ridgrunr]

I do appreciate all your responses guys. The more I think about it, the more I know you are right, it's too complicated. Gotta keep it simple. Heck, Trials riders can't even count to 5...1,2,3,5.

I do like the idea of self scoring that some of you advised. Sure wouldn't be any worse than what we are doing now. Thanks for your input!