DaveKaye Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 I've got a concern regarding Tow bar nose weights. I've a tow bar fitted to my van. When shopping around I found most tow bar manufactures advised max nose weight of 70kg. My beta weights 65kg approx. The Dave Cooper tack fits nice and tight on the tow bar. The other day I got caught out with a speed bump with the bike on the back. I can't imagine how much the nose weight increased by when going over the bump. After stopping to check 1 of the tie downs had come very loose but also noticed the the tow bar had slightly dropped. I took it to get checked and It had moved only a few millimetre and had to re-tighten the fixings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misscrabstick Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 I have used the cooper rack on several cars carrying Ty250's and Betas, you are worrying too much, check all the nuts and bolts every now and then and relax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveKaye Posted December 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 I understand what you mean and perhaps I do worry but when you have 5.5k worth of bike on the back of your van I think it's important to consider all the factors. I may have overlooked the speedbump but my point is that the maximum nose weight allowed must have nearly doubled. If the rack or tow bar had failed then who would be at fault because the tow bar manufactures wouldent have accepted liability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section swept Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 Safety Factor, nearly everything thats concerned with carrying weight has to have a Safety Factor included in the design. Just because the nose weight maximum is 70kg that doesnt mean the moment the weight is exceeded the component will fail. Take for example the load exerted just by cornering, braking and sudden acceleration, all will cause extra load to be placed in different areas. Just look at most builders vans and trailers, usually grossly overladen with materials and the vans suspension sitting on the suspension bump stop rubbers? As you have already discovered, things are going to bend before breaking. Is your van not suitsble to have the bike inside? I’d be more concerned about thieving scum bags seeing your bike (hhmmm nice lets av it) and latching on to you, cover or no cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trapezeartist Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 I share your concern but for slightly different reasons. The 70kg is a static limit that makes a sensible allowance for dynamic leadings. I once had a largish 2 axle trailer. The static nose load was quite modest but over bumps it yanked the back of the car all over the place. It never did any damage, but I got rid of it pretty quickly just in case. My concern is insurance. If your limit is 70kg and you put a 65kg bike on, plus fluids, plus rack, plus mud, you are exceeding the limit. If you have an accident you insurance company will be looking for any excuse to not pay out. And you just provided one! Even if it’s completely irrelevant to the circumstances of the accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbofurball Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 I carried a 95Kg Pampera on a Dave Cooper rack many times when I had a Mondeo with a rusty 70kg rated tow hitch. It didn't cause any problems, but I had the car on a lift every 3 months or so to check everything, just in case. The static max nose weight allows for the dynamic forces that are likely to occur with a generous safety margin. As for insurance, they won't refuse to pay out unless the bike or rack is responsible for an accident occuring - so inspect the rack and tow bar regularly, make sure the bike is properly secured (500kg rated straps are easy to get and longer lasting than market stall specials), and have a light board that works and looks 'proper' (ie. not a bit of cardboard with your reg number written in biro). In an accident the rack will bend before it breaks unless it's very rusty ... if the accident is severe enough for the rack or hitch to be torn off then you'll have other things to worry about TBH. (for what it's worth, my day job is being a crash tester) 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 9 hours ago, trapezeartist said: My concern is insurance. If your limit is 70kg and you put a 65kg bike on, plus fluids, plus rack, plus mud, you are exceeding the limit. If you have an accident you insurance company will be looking for any excuse to not pay out. And you just provided one! Even if it’s completely irrelevant to the circumstances of the accident. Check the car/van manual. Some vehicles have a higher agreed nose weight limit for the tow bar. In practice it is unlikely that there would be a mechanical failure, however the insurance and legal issues are relevant. Personally I would be more worried that the bike came to some harm and the insurers wouldn't pay out on that. The issue with these bike racks is that the weight of the bike is so far back and it limits what other load you can put in the vehicle. That's why there is a risk of grounding over speed bumps or similar. It is still possible to buy the rubber assisters for coil springs that were once a popular item for caravan users. These might be helpful but I have no personal experience of them even though we sell them. I agree with turbofurball, make sure there is adequate lighting and a lit number plate to avoid hassle. If you are using a rack at night I would be very tempted to put outside markers on the bike as well so the extra width can be seen front and back. Again it's the bike that I care about - you don't want to have some idiot bend the front wheel for you. A trailer is a good idea if you have space to store one. You can get ones that have a front panel that drops down like the tailgate and makes it long enough for a bike or pair of bikes but still gives you a trailer for other uses. Dedicated motorbike trailers really only do the one job. Trials bikes are so light compared to a road bike that you can carry them on anything. I just need to figure out how to tow the Beta with my Suzuki GSXF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on it Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 Hi i use a bike rack over a lot of years i think the only problem is how and were the straps go, ive found cars with roof rails are the best, as the strap goes up at a angle to the roof rail i feel /think it takes some of the weight of the bike ( all to do with weight transfer stuff ) if all the straps only go down to the bike rack im not happy with that way. I only use 2 straps , 1 round foot rest down to rack stop bike lifting / jumping 1 round fork leg up to roof rail bike sits solid, As said long as you have a proper light board and no plate and bikes not flapping about, ive found the police dont give you a second look Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbofurball Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 Yes, an extra light gauge strap to a high point of the car (for me it was in the rear window, to the handle in the headliner) helps to stop the bike bobbing front to back. Also, with a twinshock or trailie on a normal car they get a lot of wind resistance over 50! (wasn't an issue with a modern trials machine for me) I used to do one strap to the handlebars from the rack, and one around the back wheel to the vertical post of the rack. Experimented with one over the middle but TBH that didn't seem to make much difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveKaye Posted December 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 Thank you for all your replies, some interesting and varied comments. The towbar was retrofit fit to my van and its the towbar manufactures that specify the max ball weight. Its a small van, too small for the bike to fit inside without a proper struggle. I love the dave cooper carrier, just to point out my concern is not with the rack, its superb and does a great job. I think its a case of what your happy with, for me I know for sure that the nose weight will be exceeded and although its strong enough to take the additional weight it opens up a can of worms for the insurance companies to wriggle out of if I ever needed to claim and I don't want that. So Ive decided to look for a trailer. Please keep your comments coming though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trapezeartist Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 1 hour ago, DaveKaye said: Thank you for all your replies, some interesting and varied comments. The towbar was retrofit fit to my van and its the towbar manufactures that specify the max ball weight. Its a small van, too small for the bike to fit inside without a proper struggle. I love the dave cooper carrier, just to point out my concern is not with the rack, its superb and does a great job. I think its a case of what your happy with, for me I know for sure that the nose weight will be exceeded and although its strong enough to take the additional weight it opens up a can of worms for the insurance companies to wriggle out of if I ever needed to claim and I don't want that. So Ive decided to look for a trailer. Please keep your comments coming though. Are you really sure your bike won't go in? I carry mine in a Citroen Berlingo car (with the rear seat removed and the passenger seat a little forward of normal). I've seen people carry a bike in a Renault Kangoo too. I can't imagine there are many vans smaller than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trapezeartist Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 5 hours ago, on it said: Hi i use a bike rack over a lot of years i think the only problem is how and were the straps go, ive found cars with roof rails are the best, as the strap goes up at a angle to the roof rail i feel /think it takes some of the weight of the bike ( all to do with weight transfer stuff ) if all the straps only go down to the bike rack im not happy with that way. I only use 2 straps , 1 round foot rest down to rack stop bike lifting / jumping 1 round fork leg up to roof rail bike sits solid, As said long as you have a proper light board and no plate and bikes not flapping about, ive found the police dont give you a second look You make a very good point. Any method of fixing your bike needs to have some redundancy ie failure of any one strap or component doesn't lead to catastrophic results. If I were carrying a bike on a trailer I would use at least three straps (probably four) so that failure of one strap wouldn't let the bike fall over/off. As I carry my bike inside a van-like car, I don't need extra straps. If the bike falls over, it can't go far, and it certainly can't end up sliding down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oni nou Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 19 hours ago, DaveKaye said: I understand what you mean and perhaps I do worry but when you have 5.5k worth of bike on the back of your van I think it's important to consider all the factors. I may have overlooked the speedbump but my point is that the maximum nose weight allowed must have nearly doubled. If the rack or tow bar had failed then who would be at fault because the tow bar manufactures wouldent have accepted liability. Check the wording of the paperwork that came with your tow bar...an Anker tow bar I once bought had a line in the fitting instructions that stated " NOT FOR USE WITH BICYCLE RACKS' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveKaye Posted December 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 I can squeeze the bike in if I put it in back wheel first then over the back of the passenger seat. I have to drop the bars mind. The other issue is that unless I drain all the petrol out tiny amounts come out of the top of the filler breather, this is because the bike is laid slightly on it side to get it in the van. It's just not practical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_orange Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 I too use a rack. I use it to carry my trials and enduro bikes. Enduro bikes clearly exceed the nose weight of all non-land rover type cars. It took some effort but I had my insurance company send me an email explicitly stating that my insurance was in no way I validated by carrying either the trials bike or an enduro bike on a purpose built rack. I run a strap all the way around the enduro bike and through the back doors and it locks the bike tight against a foam pad against the boot. The trials bike gets a strap from the handle bar to the roof bars. I can't believe some people just have the bike bouncing around out there without such a strap. The main issue with the nose weight is that it does reduce the downforce on the front wheels so braking distances are extended. As such, if you go in to the back of someone or have an accident then I think the police and insurance company may well get interested in the technical details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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