konrad Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) There seems to be quite a few topics related to fuels on this forum. I'll add my contribution here. The content of both these write-ups was posted on other forums as far back as 10 years ago. My thinking has not changed. Ethanol Technical Perspective.pdf Leaded Gasoline Technical Perspective.pdf Edited January 28, 2019 by konrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 The ethanol write up is interesting (particularly as E10 is going to be the new UK standard) but nothing is said about reaction with plastic. I have read about ethanol being a problem with plastic tanks and in particular Ducati. Now, I really don't know what to believe, the Internet is not a reliable data source. Firstly the petrol cans you buy in a filling station are plastic so someone somewhere thinks it is OK and a million gardeners with a few litres for a lawn mower are all very silent on the matter. Second Ducati seem rather silent on the matter too. (Missus has a Monster). I have also read that ethanol gums up over time and so is not ideal if you don't use the bike over the winter. My road bike (Suzuki 650) sits most the winter and doesn't gum up and starts first push with months old fuel. My lawnmower does not gum up either and doesn't get the TLC of the bike. One problem in the UK is the ethanol content is not shown. In France for instance the pump clearly shows E5 or E10. Here you just have to assume it is E5. I have read (and again don't really trust) that Esso Super (97ROn) is only 1-2% ethanol or even 0%. I can report both the Suzuki and Ducati run just the same on whatever you put in it and normally get supermarket unleaded (95RON). My Beta pinks on standard unleaded, but is OK on Super. I have recently tried V Power which is a Shell 99RON product but it doesn't make any difference I can see. The technical pdf says what I have read and ethanol increases the octane rating so in my mind the higher the octane the more likely it has ethanol and yet the Internet reports suggest the opposite. We were in France at xmas and saw E85 at the local supermarket filling station. I had to look it up to see what it is. It was €0.63 a litre (unleaded is €1,29). This fuel seems quite common in the US. Could be becoming more common over here now? No real point to this other than my observations - ethanol seems to me to be inconsequential and the scare mongering about it mostly nonsense. i would love to know if there is any actual real data to suggest otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konrad Posted January 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) Chris, you can determine the volume of ethanol in a fuel with a simple test: Fill a syringe with 90cc fuel and 10cc water. Shake it well, then let it stand for 10 minutes. If the "water" portion increases from 10cc to, say 20cc, that indicates your fuel is 10% ethanol (by volume). As for ethanol's effects on plastic, I'm sure it depends on the particular plastic. (I would advise searching academic/industry research papers for a credible answer.) My red plastic fuel jugs are HDPE (high-density polyethylene). P.S. There are many ways to improve octane rating. I would say, in general, the less costly the fuel, the greater the ethanol percentage. Edited January 28, 2019 by konrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 36 minutes ago, konrad said: .. As for ethanol's effects on plastic, I'm sure it depends on the particular plastic. (I would advise searching academic/industry research papers for a credible answer.) My red plastic fuel jugs are HDPE (high-density polyethylene). I guess you would need to know what particular plastic the motorbike tank is made of. There are gigabytes of discussion on the matter and lawsuits in the US. My understanding is Ducati also replaced some tanks under warranty. The on going problem appears to be if any European models are affected and what if any comeback there might be on a bike that is 5 or more years old and the problem is the petrol spec has changed from that when the bike was manufactured. The tanks are - I think - PA6 made by Acerbis who also make tanks for dirt bikes. There was a class action filed in California against Ducati US in (IIRC) 2010. A fix of a liner material was as best I know the solution used and the Internet rumour machine revolves around whether the EU spec machines were not getting the same problem as E10 is not widely used in the EU and not in the UK. personally I think if E5 is OK then E10 will be as the percentage of ethanol is unlikely to make any odds to it being absorbed or not. Therefore I think all the BS on the 'net is the usual agenda of making a problem where none exists. The weird thing is I notice a smell of fuel now and then from the Monster as you walk past it. So you add 2 and 2 and get twenty-two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konrad Posted January 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, ChrisCH said: I guess you would need to know what particular plastic the motorbike tank is made of. The plastic should be abbreviated on the underside of the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petert Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 Aren't most modern car tanks Plastic now? wonder how they fare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konrad Posted January 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, petert said: Aren't most modern car tanks Plastic now? wonder how they fare? "Monolayer-HDPE tanks offer long-term structural integrity but will not meet future permeation requirements." https://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9607/alvarado-9607.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section swept Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 2 hours ago, konrad said: "Monolayer-HDPE tanks offer long-term structural integrity but will not meet future permeation requirements." https://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9607/alvarado-9607.html So we are all stuffed then. If you’ve just bought a new car, it will probably need a different material tank very soon....so will everyone else. Trucks use plastic tanks too! Ask yourself arecwe being forced to go electric! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa325 Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 A friend of mine who has older bikes with fibreglass tanks as well as a newer bike, drains his fuel tank after every ride at the event. This would certainly limit the amount of time ethanol based fuel was in the tank, assuming you can't buy ethanol free fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konrad Posted January 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 28 minutes ago, section swept said: So we are all stuffed then. If you’ve just bought a new car, it will probably need a different material tank very soon....so will everyone else. Trucks use plastic tanks too! Ask yourself arecwe being forced to go electric! Don't get too upset, that paper was written in 1996 and is from the point of view of manufacturers, not consumers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feetupfun Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 I see that the latest Honda road-registerable enduro bike has a titanium fuel tank, which is Honda's solution for meeting (evaporative) emissions standards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section swept Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 9 hours ago, feetupfun said: I see that the latest Honda road-registerable enduro bike has a titanium fuel tank, which is Honda's solution for meeting (evaporative) emissions standards Oh dear, thought there were certain chemicals in everyday use that attack Titanium! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 Back to steel then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feetupfun Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 1 hour ago, section swept said: Oh dear, thought there were certain chemicals in everyday use that attack Titanium! https://www.corrosion-doctors.org/MatSelect/corrtitanium.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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