WTC observations from an old fart

[rockheadrumple]

7 rounds for the WTC? F1 is trying to extend the championship and we are contracting... Has the world gone mad? I don't really know the rules but it seems to me that the current rules have bred a kind of super rider that 0.01% of us can aspire to... This WTC is so far removed from the grass roots of the sport. Myself as an also ran rode in the same trial as Bernie Schreiber in the 80's .. We could relate to the severity of the sections and fail suitably. These days we need to actually need to return to work after the weekend event.

So why has the WTC come down to 7 rounds....I guess it's all about money..... So yes, the world has gone mad!!!!!

[faussy]

Its advanced itself beyond common reach. Every sport goes through a golden age, trials was in the late 70s to early 90s. Personally i believe it needs a regression, changing the rules wasn't it, but i understand the reasoning. It needs bikes to take a few steps back, to allow a more sensible level to return. To me, bou going up a 12 foot step is no more impressive than jordi going up an 8 ft or lejeune up a 6 foot. Bigger doesn't always mean better. Just look at F1, the most advanced boring sport in the world

Something is wrong when a venue like addingham moorside can't meet the level of a world round. Motocross killed its venues in the 90s, trials is doing the same thing.

The same thing is happening at local level, its becoming harder and harder to mark a section for the beginner and the expert rider at the same venue. Run a trial that suits the expert rider and the beginners complain, run a trial that suits the beginner and the experts complain. Years ago it was easier because the bikes didn't exacerbate the difference in level

Edited March 1, 2019 by faussy

[nhuskys]

Look at the growth of the new World Enduro Super Series (WESS), compared to the FIM World Enduro Championship (EWC). Husqvarna and KTM has pulled their factory teams out of EWC, to compete in WESS. The big difference is that in WESS.... Clubman riders can compete at some level, in at least part of all the events, whereas EWC is an exclusive event for just a few professional riders. Some WESS events use a prologue or knock out format, so the final is pretty exclusive, but all riders got to try. WESS is actually multi discipline, not just hard enduros.... It has hard enduro, cross country, traditional enduro, and beach races.

Trials could create such series.... Maybe the SSDT and the Scott could be the core events. 3 Day Trial Santigosa in Spain and UTE Cup in the US. But not just longer format trials.... you could add an urban trial and shorter format trials. The main point would be to set them up that all level of riders could compete. Yes this would be complicated, as the lowest and highest level riders can't ride the same line, but multiple gates are the norm now.

[collyolly]

I think everyone rides the same route in the Scottish, it's oversubscribed but not by the top riders !

They always find a winner, Doug may be near clean and the last finisher in the big hundreds but it's proper trials everyone can relate to and ride.

 

[roester]

I think sections with mud, roots and cambers might help to level things a bit.

Bring back muddy Butser Limeworks!  My feeling is that a really good national level rider might still be able to compete in a world round in that type of trial.  It would be tough and the cream would still rise to the top...

 

[nhuskys]

2 hours ago, collyolly said:

I think everyone rides the same route in the Scottish, it's oversubscribed but not by the top riders !

They always find a winner, Doug may be near clean and the last finisher in the big hundreds but it's proper trials everyone can relate to and ride.

 

Everybody rides the same line at the Scottish and the Scott.

[hgas]

Here’s my quids worth.. give it another 5/10 years and the world championship will cease to exist and instead become the Spanish national championship , I don’t really know how to save the wtc like previously mentioned its evolved past the point of no return unless all the manufacturers come together and decide to make twinshock trials bikes again.off topic slightly but I do have a theory to save the British championship, I believe the Scott and the Scottish should be scoring rounds and then select some of the rounds from the s3 national championship to be scoring rounds aswell and they could be rotated round every year so every club has a fair crack. And then have a separate British arena championship for the big boys maybe 3 or 4 rounds 

[nhuskys]

Need new twinshock trials bike to save WTC.... could you expand on that thought. I'm not really understanding?

[worlez]

Sorry but some of the comments on this are absolute pish. 

What on earth would limiting or regressing bike ability accomplish?? Do you think old heavy twin shocks inspire the next generation of trials riders? I don’t think so, they certainly didn’t inspire me at that age.

And the point about modern bikes exacerbating the difference in riders’ level is not the bikes fault, it’s the riders. 

I agree there are obvious issues with WTC and X-Trial at the moment, but I think these are primarily commercial issues borne from the sport being undervalued as a progressive extreme sport. Trials needs to take direction from the likes of Red Bull and create a vision of the sport as challenging, accessible and ultimately alluring. Riding fifty year old technology does nothing towards this. 

[micm]

23 hours ago, roester said:

Bring back muddy Butser Limeworks!

Hoping to! But can't guarantee the weather

 

[faussy]

4 hours ago, worlez said:

Sorry but some of the comments on this are absolute pish. 

What on earth would limiting or regressing bike ability accomplish?? Do you think old heavy twin shocks inspire the next generation of trials riders? I don’t think so, they certainly didn’t inspire me at that age.

And the point about modern bikes exacerbating the difference in riders’ level is not the bikes fault, it’s the riders. 

I agree there are obvious issues with WTC and X-Trial at the moment, but I think these are primarily commercial issues borne from the sport being undervalued as a progressive extreme sport. Trials needs to take direction from the likes of Red Bull and create a vision of the sport as challenging, accessible and ultimately alluring. Riding fifty year old technology does nothing towards this. 

They would put less pressure on finding venues capable of hosting a WTC. Theres becoming less and less. You did hear the news that britain isn't hosting a WTC? Its a factor. Modern bikes certainly don't inspire this generation to get involved. If anything, they put people off

It is the bikes fault, when the bikes were less capable, experts and clubmen used to ride the same line. Now theres 3 lines, sometimes 4 lines at a trial and it still isn't enough. Put Lewis hamilton in a ford fiesta and you and i wouldnt be that far behind him. Put us in an F1 car, we wouldnt see him past the first corner. Same principle. When things are at a lower level the difference in abilities is minimised. Do you follow the Scottish or the pre65 scottish even?

Accessible? Accessible means lowering the level closer to Joe Bloggs, you're contradicting yourself here.

PS Your comment sounds like you were on the pish when you wrote it

Edited March 2, 2019 by faussy

[on it]

38 minutes ago, faussy said:

They would put less pressure on finding venues capable of hosting a WTC. Theres becoming less and less. You did hear the news that britain isn't hosting a WTC? Its a factor. Modern bikes certainly don't inspire this generation to get involved. If anything, they put people off

It is the bikes fault, when the bikes were less capable, experts and clubmen used to ride the same line. Now theres 3 lines, sometimes 4 lines at a trial and it still isn't enough. Put Lewis hamilton in a ford fiesta and you and i wouldnt be that far behind him. Put us in an F1 car, we wouldnt see him past the first corner. Same principle. When things are at a lower level the difference in abilities is minimised. Do you follow the Scottish or the pre65 scottish even?

Accessible? Accessible means lowering the level closer to Joe Bloggs, you're contradicting yourself here.

PS Your comment sounds like you were on the pish when you wrote it

The only thing put world rounds off is money or the lack of it , If you lower the level the same riders will still win just not loosing marks , So tell me this faussy why at a trial  on the same course all the riders on the same make  bike should be  on the same mark as you point out the abilities are minimised  The problems not the bikes its riders some will work hard to get fit and train hard on the bike  and others lazzy thats why the need for all the courses , As for this" generation" the new bikes is all they know , When im at a trial and they complain  that the section is to hard on a modern bike we used to ride it in twin shock days so yes its the bikes fault ! In  40 +yrs of trialing  ive never seen a bike go through a section clean without a rider on it They all need to be ridden , 

[worlez]

1 hour ago, faussy said:

They would put less pressure on finding venues capable of hosting a WTC. Theres becoming less and less. You did hear the news that britain isn't hosting a WTC? Its a factor. Modern bikes certainly don't inspire this generation to get involved. If anything, they put people off  I don’t see how no GB round has anything at all to do with the bikes? By way of anecdote, when I got seriously into trials around 14 (I’m now 32) was when I moved from a TY80 to a Beta Gara, and then shortly after a Mont 315. I had loads of fun on the TY but moving onto proper bikes unlocked a whole different world of things to ride and ways to ride it. Every new bike I got gave my riding a new phase of improvement and ambition, so for me the more capable machines certainly did inspire me. This was the same for al my riding friends.

It is the bikes fault, when the bikes were less capable, experts and clubmen used to ride the same line. Now theres 3 lines, sometimes 4 lines at a trial and it still isn't enough. Put Lewis hamilton in a ford fiesta and you and i wouldnt be that far behind him. Put us in an F1 car, we wouldnt see him past the first corner. Same principle. When things are at a lower level the difference in abilities is minimised. Do you follow the Scottish or the pre65 scottish even? I don’t follow the pre65 but avidly follow the Scottish, and the Scott. Look at the difference in the top ten riders’ scores vs the casual riders in the 200+ range. A less capable bike might make it more challenging for the top riders, but equally more challenging for a less skilled rider. As much as I enjoy them those events are frankly nostalgic and no reflection of where the future of trials ‘skill’ is going. The fact that Dougie can go around for 1 mark suggests that it’s all but been conquered as a technical challenge. It should be seen more as a test of endurance and mental composure than of skill on the bike.

Accessible? Accessible means lowering the level closer to Joe Bloggs, you're contradicting yourself here. Accessible in the way BMX, downhill MTB, Cyclotrials is. Prolific might have been a better word to make the point.

PS Your comment sounds like you were on the pish when you wrote it

 

[faussy]

1 hour ago, on it said:

So tell me this faussy why at a trial  on the same course all the riders on the same make  bike should be  on the same mark as you point out the abilities are minimised  

This doesn't make sense. Is it a question?

A less capable bike might make it more challenging for the top riders, but equally more challenging for a less skilled rider. 

You obviously were never around in the 70s or have any experience of trials in the past to come out with a statement like that

Edited March 2, 2019 by faussy

[worlez]

1 hour ago, faussy said:

You obviously were never around in the 70s or have any experience of trials in the past to come out with a statement like that

Correct, but nor were any of the riders in today’s WTC field and certainly not the future generations who will influence how the sport evolves. So it might as well be dropped as a line of suggestion as it will never, and should never happen, lest the sport become archaic and lose any hope of attracting young riders to pursue a career in competitive trials.