Toni Bou finishes clean but has a 5!

[apexmetrology]

4 hours ago, leembarnes said:

In the spirit of fair play if he knowingly had a dab, or even the five, should he not have corrected the observer?? Regardless of whether he wins by 15, 19 or 20 marks. 

I agree ! His minder, team manager and whoever else saw the ‘fiasco’ could have reminded him that although he is a genius on a bike with multiple world championships he is also a role model and brand ambassador that both current and future riders respect. Regardless of location I’d think that the seniors in Honda won’t be too impressed if they were to understand the neglect of rules being adhered too or the honesty of the team.

 

[jonnyc21]

4 hours ago, dirkb said:

Well ... I guess that explains it ... I know for sure I wouldn't feel good at all getting away with a dab or any other infraction I'm aware of ... but then again: I will never be competing at the same level as these guys (and the accompanying high stakes) ...

I'll be the fair play guy to start a trend ?

I am with you... I have been riding trials now for about 6 years and don't argue my score even if I really thought I got a 2 and they are marking a 3 or what ever. I have admitted more than once my score of a 2 or 3 and then been told they only noticed 1 or 2.  The funny part is that even admitting my score only once did the observer actually punched what I told them, the rest commented on only what they noticed and then punched what they had seen any way...  

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by jonnyc21

[lineaway]

7 hours ago, apexmetrology said:

I agree ! His minder, team manager and whoever else saw the ‘fiasco’ could have reminded him that although he is a genius on a bike with multiple world championships he is also a role model and brand ambassador that both current and future riders respect. Regardless of location I’d think that the seniors in Honda won’t be too impressed if they were to understand the neglect of rules being adhered too or the honesty of the team.

 

 How long have you been riding trials and have you ever been to a World round? That is one of the reasons they are only allowed one minder anymore. The minders would cheat any chance they could. Or wait, maybe change the odds is a kinder phrase.

[hannon]

Not trying to change topic to Fuji but.....

What about this stall around 11:30.....any comments?

 

[hannon]

It is always easy to sit back days later and watch a video and judge what should have happened and who should have seen what etc.  I would highly recommend everyone experience volunteering to work a world round.

I would also add that working a world round event isn't easy.  There is lots of pressure.  Many of the competitors argue, minders are building kickers, keeping track of time, messing with the iPad etc.  Additionally I know here at the last US round the FIM representative told us to not be strict on the no-stop rule.

Personally as a rider my rule is to never argue with the workers and sometimes you win some and sometimes you lose some; thankfully I don't have much on the line like the top world riders.

[thai-ty]

On 6/18/2019 at 6:07 AM, trapezeartist said:

I’m torn between 1 and 5 on the first video. I’m not familiar with FIM marking guidelines (somewhat irrelevant in my world) so I would follow the observers briefing if it was my call. I can’t see how the second one can be anything but a 5.

Concur.

In that 1st video @ 2.45 mins i saw a 1 and not a 5, but then i'm not that au fait with modern stuff.

Still, great to see some mud and slippery stuff at a WC round hey?

[baldilocks]

Fuji stalling the bike should also be a five. Lots of stops in all the videos for all the riders which are longer than the stop raga was fived for. There's not a non stop section in the entire event. 

Corners taped to right angles so they all hop into the corners. Watch the qualifying section, raga jumps from a rock to a log in a straight line, virtually every other rider hops off the side , hops/ stops again then goes over the log. Raga gets a time advantage but as he is virtually last through the observer probably hasn't realised that bit could be ridden no stop , every other rider could have been fived. The observer however, prior to Raga s attempt is probably thinking it can only be done the other way ?

It's so subjective, it's so easy to criticise but difficult to do any better. 

I've said this before , the FIM need rules to govern the setting out of sections. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by baldilocks

[b40rt]

20 minutes ago, baldilocks said:

I've said this before , the FIM need rules to govern the setting out of sections. 

They needs rules full stop, be it no stop or stop allowed. I don't care which, but the present series is a farce.

[Andy]

55 minutes ago, b40rt said:

They needs rules full stop, be it no stop or stop allowed. I don't care which, but the present series is a farce.

You can have all the rules you want, but as long as observers are cheating in favour of their home riders, with Italy and France being the worst, it will make no difference.

[Canario]

20 hours ago, leembarnes said:

In the spirit of fair play if he knowingly had a dab, or even the five, should he not have corrected the observer?? Regardless of whether he wins by 15, 19 or 20 marks. 

Hmm, the japanese observer would have lost face. No option at all.

Canario

[hannon]

11 hours ago, Andy said:

You can have all the rules you want, but as long as observers are cheating in favour of their home riders, with Italy and France being the worst, it will make no difference.

Similarly, you can what ever rules but if the observers are being told to "not be strict" by the FIM/authority/representative.....which resulted in nearly a 1hr discussion as to what amount of stoppage would be accepted and what constituted a 5......even for non-biased observers this creates issues

[Intotrials]

On 6/19/2019 at 10:04 PM, hannon said:

Similarly, you can what ever rules but if the observers are being told to "not be strict" by the FIM/authority/representative.....which resulted in nearly a 1hr discussion as to what amount of stoppage would be accepted and what constituted a 5......even for non-biased observers this creates issues

Personally after watching the latest couple of rounds I don't see how they can observe world rounds as true "no stop" trials. In fact I don't see how you can run most modern trials strictly no stop unless you set "traditional sections" such as long straight, wide turn routes where keeping both wheels on the ground and turning is the advantage. The world round sections are predominantly still tight turns up big steps, with the odd bank side to climb! No observer is going to 5 a rider for a momentarily stop on such severe sections, especially the likes of Bou & co. From what I have seen the riders know this and as usual exploit the fact! As bad as the observation on the particular section in question on this thread was, I saw plenty of riders get away with what should have clearly been 5's. 

Bou brought the modern style of riding to the world and now all the kids are copying it. They will also copy their hero's antics and expect not to be 5'ved for a quick stop in a no stop section. And to be fair would you have the heart to 5 someone for a split second pause after they had a great ride through a tough section?  

I just don't see the point of running no stop, its difficult to observe and remain consistent. If  no stop rules are to be used then the sections should reflect this and be achievable without any split second pause/stop similar to those in the 6 day or other similar national events. But, lets face it modern bikes are essentially designed to be trick ridden and the majority of riders enjoy doing or attempting a bit themselves all of us enjoy a good mixture of terrain and types of sections. This includes sections which require the trick riding, at least to some degree, so making all trials no stop limits the types of sections and limits the full potential of the machines. 

I personally would allow  momentarily stop with no reversing, the stop being only a few seconds maybe 3 - 5 seconds where the observer can comfortably count before denouncing a 5. At the world rounds each observer could be given a counter with alarms, they press the button once the rider stops then an alert sounds after a preset time which indicates a fail, unless the observer presses once the rider sets off again within the preset time. It could even have a count down alert so everyone can hear, including the rider so there is no discrepancy.This system would not be 100% and sure would have its problems but at least there would be some consistency and less easy for riders to exploit and more encouraging for the lesser rider who wants a fair attempt!    

[triangle]

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 1:09 PM, Intotrials said:

Personally after watching the latest couple of rounds I don't see how they can observe world rounds as true "no stop" trials. In fact I don't see how you can run most modern trials strictly no stop unless you set "traditional sections" such as long straight, wide turn routes where keeping both wheels on the ground and turning is the advantage. The world round sections are predominantly still tight turns up big steps, with the odd bank side to climb! No observer is going to 5 a rider for a momentarily stop on such severe sections, especially the likes of Bou & co. From what I have seen the riders know this and as usual exploit the fact! As bad as the observation on the particular section in question on this thread was, I saw plenty of riders get away with what should have clearly been 5's. 

Bou brought the modern style of riding to the world and now all the kids are copying it. They will also copy their hero's antics and expect not to be 5'ved for a quick stop in a no stop section. And to be fair would you have the heart to 5 someone for a split second pause after they had a great ride through a tough section?  

I just don't see the point of running no stop, its difficult to observe and remain consistent. If  no stop rules are to be used then the sections should reflect this and be achievable without any split second pause/stop similar to those in the 6 day or other similar national events. But, lets face it modern bikes are essentially designed to be trick ridden and the majority of riders enjoy doing or attempting a bit themselves all of us enjoy a good mixture of terrain and types of sections. This includes sections which require the trick riding, at least to some degree, so making all trials no stop limits the types of sections and limits the full potential of the machines. 

I personally would allow  momentarily stop with no reversing, the stop being only a few seconds maybe 3 - 5 seconds where the observer can comfortably count before denouncing a 5. At the world rounds each observer could be given a counter with alarms, they press the button once the rider stops then an alert sounds after a preset time which indicates a fail, unless the observer presses once the rider sets off again within the preset time. It could even have a count down alert so everyone can hear, including the rider so there is no discrepancy.This system would not be 100% and sure would have its problems but at least there would be some consistency and less easy for riders to exploit and more encouraging for the lesser rider who wants a fair attempt!    

5 seconds isn't a momentary stop! This is why it is all wrong. No stop is no stop, not stop for a few seconds then a few more on the next section etc. The top riders need to be able to stop as the sport has evolved from what it used to be. The SSDT observing is very lenient now compared to what it used to be but who can criticise them as they are volunteers. .

[Intotrials]

56 minutes ago, triangle said:

5 seconds isn't a momentary stop! This is why it is all wrong. No stop is no stop, not stop for a few seconds then a few more on the next section etc. The top riders need to be able to stop as the sport has evolved from what it used to be. The SSDT observing is very lenient now compared to what it used to be but who can criticise them as they are volunteers. .

5 seconds is a momentarily stop, a well defined one! which was my point.

I chose this value as it is easier to manage than 2 seconds but short enough to keep things generally moving. I don't claim it is a solution, just a compromise which might be an option.  

If you are going to allow stopping but are concerned about riders taking an age to complete a section then you need to implement some sort of time limit for a stop, to keep things consistent.

Maybe a time limit for the section as done so in the indoor is the best option??

No stop is definitely nonsensical at this level and maybe national level and above. 

Show me an observer who is willing to strictly follow the "no stop" rule to the letter in a major event and i'll show you a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. If you are going to allow stop with no restriction the riders will just spend ages lining up and messing around wasting time and making it very boring to watch.  The riders will bend and exploit the rules as much as they can, why not if it gives them an edge?  

Honestly, I don't see a total win win solution, the modern style of bikes and riding are just not suited to strictly no stop. For example, I can flip turn my bike in such away that both wheels are not turning at all yet the bike is slightly moving forward but it looks like i'm stationary & vise versa. What would the observer award me? I suspect I'd get a mix of decisions which I would have to accept. The top guys can do this type of trick riding far better than I could ever dream of doing, some of which strictly could be deemed a stop, but they manoeuvre the bike in such a way that it looks like its not stopped & vise versa. And again when faced with a huge step they often pre-load the bikes' suspension with a very slight pause before exploding into the step, or they sump out on the step pause very quickly as they heave the bike over.  Who is going to 5 them for this pause?      

Edited July 3, 2019 by Intotrials

[triangle]

55 minutes ago, Intotrials said:

5 seconds is a momentarily stop, a well defined one! which was my point.

I chose this value as it is easier to manage than 2 seconds but short enough to keep things generally moving. I don't claim it is a solution, just a compromise which might be an option.  

If you are going to allow stopping but are concerned about riders taking an age to complete a section then you need to implement some sort of time limit for a stop, to keep things consistent.

Maybe a time limit for the section as done so in the indoor is the best option??

No stop is definitely nonsensical at this level and maybe national level and above. 

Show me an observer who is willing to strictly follow the "no stop" rule to the letter in a major event and i'll show you a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. If you are going to allow stop with no restriction the riders will just spend ages lining up and messing around wasting time and making it very boring to watch.  The riders will bend and exploit the rules as much as they can, why not if it gives them an edge?  

Honestly, I don't see a total win win solution, the modern style of bikes and riding are just not suited to strictly no stop. For example, I can flip turn my bike in such away that both wheels are not turning at all yet the bike is slightly moving forward but it looks like i'm stationary & vise versa. What would the observer award me? I suspect I'd get a mix of decisions which I would have to accept. The top guys can do this type of trick riding far better than I could ever dream of doing, some of which strictly could be deemed a stop, but they manoeuvre the bike in such a way that it looks like its not stopped & vise versa. And again when faced with a huge step they often pre-load the bikes' suspension with a very slight pause before exploding into the step, or they sump out on the step pause very quickly as they heave the bike over.  Who is going to 5 them for this pause?      

The time limit per section was introduced in 1994 and was 3 minutes per section and people thought that was tight. Then it gradually reduced and even ended up at 1 minute per section which was really dangerous as the sections were not set at the correct length. The 90 second time limit is spot on if a time limit is to be applied (which in my opinion is necessary at top level) but at club level it works fine without. Riders soon get moaned at by other riders in the queue if they are taking an age to ride the section.

I have observed at world rounds and enforced the rules consistently and fairly (the key word for all observing is consistent) and guess what - we got a complete barrage of abuse for sticking to the rules. One of the team even got a helmet thrown at him by one of the minders and a complete barrage of swearing - good old family sport eh! There is a huge difference between a momentary pause and a definite stop and the riders at the top level have pushed it for years. Trouble is that it appears to be the FIM who are not changing the rules for some reason which I don't understand. I'm sure the official quotes were that it would be more affordable and increase entries! yeah right! At grass roots level, how do you explain to a newcomer that you don't actually know what you will get scored as this observer will let you off but that one won't. It is laughable really and it just needs simplifying somehow.

Edited July 3, 2019 by triangle