When will it end ??

[triangle]

31 minutes ago, nigel dabster said:

What facts do you have to say entries are up at grass roots?

I can only speak from being a club secretary and organising events that the entries are well up and there are lots more people applying for a licence than before. The ACU published some figures that the number of people holding a licence was up on previous years. (can't remember the exact figures).

[faussy]

2 hours ago, nigel dabster said:

surely most of the sections would come down a notch if no stop was enforced?

I get what you're saying, but did you see the sections in belgium? Some had 20 yard run ups, that has nothing to do with not enforcing no stop

2 hours ago, nigel dabster said:

By the same process you should only allow twinshocks no linkage and drum brakes? Why just tyres? Then you could have 3 ft steps and no risk?

I said changing the tyres is the 'easiest'.

Edited July 4, 2019 by faussy

[breagh]

Totally agree with the tyres,still using the same size as my dad had on his Gold Star BSA,.there's been no attempt to limit the development.

Fact is riders now ride stop start style as they've the grip to do this, you wouldn't dare stop on an old rock hard Avon.

 

[trapezeartist]

8 hours ago, nigel dabster said:

surely most of the sections would come down a notch if no stop was enforced?

A rigid enforcement of no-stop is just as subjective and difficult to judge as the present not-much-of-a-stop. At the Southern Experts a few months ago we were told to be very strict on no-stop. We dished out a lot of 5s. Some riders were most unhappy and I generally sympathised with them: it seemed unfair to apply the same penalty for a momentary feet-up hesitation as for a total failure.

I’m not saying I know the solution; just that we haven’t found it yet.

[b40rt]

36 minutes ago, trapezeartist said:

 it seemed unfair to apply the same penalty for a momentary feet-up hesitation as for a total failure.

 

It's even more unfair to stop and get a clean, compared to riding no stop.

[jonnyc21]

3 hours ago, b40rt said:

It's even more unfair to stop and get a clean, compared to riding no stop.

I agree with this only if your allowed to stop and have a foot down and then get a clean.  If you keep your feet up when stopped, that to me is a skill and I think they are fine with a clean. 

My 2 cents.  ?‍♂️

[Intotrials]

7 hours ago, b40rt said:

It's even more unfair to stop and get a clean, compared to riding no stop.

Trouble is no one, without exception, in world championship trials strictly adheres to no stop. The main reason, I suspect, from what I have witnessed is that the sections are designed in such a way that to complete them strictly no stop is near on impossible. If every brief pause was deemed a 5 then the entire entry would be 5 'ved on 90% of the sections each lap.

[nigel dabster]

14 hours ago, faussy said:

I get what you're saying, but did you see the sections in belgium? Some had 20 yard run ups, that has nothing to do with not enforcing no stop

I said changing the tyres is the 'easiest'.

I would say changing tyres is probably impossible. There is really only one manufacturer at wtc level, would they produce tyres a smaller size? who pays for moulds ($$$)? privateers and youths have to buy there own? would everyone have to have them including uk club riders and so on. Unworkable and not the easiest. That would be twin shocks bolted on.

 

 

[Intotrials]

16 hours ago, nigel dabster said:

Agree with what you say but its not so much the bikes but the riders that are much better. Said it before, a raw novice on a twinshock back in the 80's cant do much more than someone in 2019 with a brand new bike, top lads on the otherhand....

I don't think this is entirely the case. I agree, much like most sports these days the quality of competitor at the top levels is generally better than years back. You see this in sports like golf etc.. Part of this is because they are "athletes" these days they focus so much more on their physicality and are more professional with more money and backing allowing them to excel there skills to the max.  The "normal" person doesn't have this luxury.   

Put Bou on a 1980's twin shock and yes he will still probably beat most other people on the same bike but he will not be able to do the stuff he does on a modern bike.  

I don't agree with halting progress, I'm a big fan of innovation. I wouldn't condone restricting the tyres or bikes, handicapping the riders like this is (in my opinion) not the answer.  

[nigel dabster]

9 hours ago, trapezeartist said:

A rigid enforcement of no-stop is just as subjective and difficult to judge as the present not-much-of-a-stop. At the Southern Experts a few months ago we were told to be very strict on no-stop. We dished out a lot of 5s. Some riders were most unhappy and I generally sympathised with them: it seemed unfair to apply the same penalty for a momentary feet-up hesitation as for a total failure.

I’m not saying I know the solution; just that we haven’t found it yet.

It may have seemed unfair but thats from yours and our CURRENT viewpoint not from a no stop starting point. Whatever trials is its always the same, have you never taken a flying dab that barely touches the ground yet someone has a long and deliberate big dab? you just dab 3 times but someone legs from beginning to end and gets the same, miss a marker and its a five, too many examples to go on but if the rules were adhered to rather than showing sympathy we would be better off?

Edited July 5, 2019 by nigel dabster

[nigel dabster]

4 minutes ago, Intotrials said:

I don't think this is entirely the case. I agree, much like most sports these days the quality of competitor at the top levels is generally better than years back. You see this in sports like golf etc.. Part of this is because they are "athletes" these days they focus so much more on their physicality and are more professional with more money and backing allowing them to excel there skills to the max.  The "normal" person doesn't have this luxury.   

Put Bou on a 1980's twin shock and yes he will still probably beat most other people on the same bike but he will not be able to do the stuff he does on a modern bike.  

I don't agree with halting progress, I'm a big fan of innovation. I wouldn't condone restricting the tyres or bikes, handicapping the riders like this is (in my opinion) not the answer.  

I think you mis read my example, Bou couldnt do half of what he does even on a bike 20 years old, but a raw novice is probably very little difference, this is what creates the vast gulf in overall performance not primarily the bikes.

[nigel dabster]

16 hours ago, triangle said:

I can only speak from being a club secretary and organising events that the entries are well up and there are lots more people applying for a licence than before. The ACU published some figures that the number of people holding a licence was up on previous years. (can't remember the exact figures).

any evidence to support this as im sure the overall figures are down, just look at clubs that no longer exsist etc. Nice to know acu figures that would give us some idea as to the trend?

[Intotrials]

9 minutes ago, nigel dabster said:

I think you mis read my example, Bou couldnt do half of what he does even on a bike 20 years old, but a raw novice is probably very little difference, this is what creates the vast gulf in overall performance not primarily the bikes.

I agree and understand your point, but the difference is, because Bou & co are not able to perform the same acrobatics on the older bikes then the sections would have to reflect this also. This means a novice rider though still unable to match the skills of a top rider can relate more closely to the "older" riding style. I have touched on this on other threads. 

I remember watching Eddy Lejuine  doing pivot turns and small wheel hops and the crowd wowing at the spectacle. But the average rider was able to go out and attempt the same feats without fear of serious injury, the average rider though no where near as good as Eddy could at least relate to what they were watching. In fact not just the average trials rider, but anyone who had an interest in motorcycling in general.  

[nigel dabster]

1 minute ago, Intotrials said:

I agree and understand your point, but the difference is, because Bou & co are not able to perform the same acrobatics on the older bikes then the sections would have to reflect this also. This means a novice rider though still unable to match the skills of a top rider can relate more closely to the "older" riding style. I have touched on this on other threads. 

I remember watching Eddy Lejuine  doing pivot turns and small wheel hops and the crowd wowing at the spectacle. But the average rider was able to go out and attempt the same feats without fear of serious injury, the average rider though no where near as good as Eddy could at least relate to what they were watching. In fact not just the average trials rider, but anyone who had an interest in motorcycling in general.  

That was then this is now, and when i was going to alot of wtc 10 or so years ago it was exactly the same the ordinary person could not relate to what the top lads could do.

You cant turn the clock back on the increased ability of riders post Tarres?

[Intotrials]

9 minutes ago, nigel dabster said:

That was then this is now, and when i was going to alot of wtc 10 or so years ago it was exactly the same the ordinary person could not relate to what the top lads could do.

You cant turn the clock back on the increased ability of riders post Tarres?

I agree, and I never would suggest we should. For me Tarres took the sport to a new level and changed the culture of the riding style, again - partly due to the capabilities of the modern bikes. Bou has taken it to an even new higher level, fully exploiting the capability of a modern bike.   

Unfortunately the side effect of this is an ever growing divide between "normal" riders and elite riders. I think this divide is inevitable as technology continues and the elite become greater athletes. But we have to accept this or change or do something about it. The main debate being what is best for the longevity and survival of the sport? And does the current world championship have any bearing on this anyhow?   

Edited July 5, 2019 by Intotrials