Riding a 4RT

[johnsandywhite]

On 11/27/2019 at 6:53 PM, mercuryrev said:

Looks a great area to be able to ride. We are in your area towards the end of February heading back from a few weeks in Portugal. Got friends living in Torrevieja and hoping to get some cycling in while we're there.

Do you have to register the bike for the road, insure it, etc.?

 

We don't ride on the road. Just all off track.

[jonnyc21]

There are a few differences that I have found between the 2T's I have had the chance to ride and my Montesa 4RT's. 

The most noticeable difference between them in my time riding the Montesa in comparison to the different 2T's I have been on is the way the power of the engine feels.  There is also a combination of other things that I think really stand out like how the clutch differs, engine braking, and subtle differences in weight with both a bit more and location (how the bike caries it).

This is my perception on the Montesa in comparison to the 2T's I have been on... 

1) Power: Fantastic mid range and very easy to modulate with throttle and can have you riding more with it than the clutch if you get lazy. 

2) Clutch: A bit stiffer pull (though not much) and can be a bit more on/off than most of the 2T's if not running a good oil for it but I have found it very manageable with good clutch oil.  (ELF, ATF, or Maxima 75 have all worked well for me, I suggest a search for ELF oil if you have more questions here)

3) Engine braking: Need to learn how to use it or avoid it by letting off the throttle or pulling the clutch longer or holding a touch of throttle for a second longer etc.  Just takes some adjustment time if you come from a 2T background.

4) Weight: Depending on the bike you compare I have seen between 6 to 10 lbs difference... To me the Montesa seems to hold its weight a bit lower than the 2T's I have been on.  So, when you find your balance it feels very planted and to me doesn't seem to take as much work to keep in place.  However it can also be harder to get back that balance if you let it go to far without correction. 

 

This is a few of the things I can think of off the top of my head. 

[mercuryrev]

On 11/28/2019 at 5:08 PM, Johnny Reggie said:

Monts Tickover at around 1800. Don’t worry about this, most owners gear them down from 10/41 to 9/41, this makes them slightly easier to handle.  You can ride them off the clutch or on the clutch. The bike will not run away with you, shut it off and you have a little engine braking coming into play (I like this personally). It’s true they are a little heavier, again I wouldn’t worry on this score. I see plenty of riders winning on the Monts - they are capable machines - as ever it comes down to the riders ability. The main changes of late on the Monts (4RT and Repsol came in with the 260 engine - the ones with the map switch). My advice would be to try and avoid anything older than ‘16. Bon chance!

Just the sort of description I am looking for, thanks for that. I think I've learnt from road bikes that weight is a fairly subjective thing, once you're used to it, a lighter bike can feel too light at first! 

From watching different videos, it seems that the Mont will drive from little or no throttle almost immediately and more so than, say a 250 2T? Is that a fair statement?

[mercuryrev]

On 11/28/2019 at 9:58 PM, jimmyl said:

Gearing down I think spoils the 4rt best points in that it’s gear are long- first gear is amazing on std gearing- you can clean things in first that beta fixers are doing in 3rd.

i think the trick on a  4rt is to use the higher tick over  to your advantage. Maybe on a t2 you blip throttle and slip clutch against each other - modulatting both  On the mont you set the throttle steady and modulate the clutch against it .  This seems to help smooth out the torque spikes and minimise engine braking .

if you blip the throttle you get a kind of learner driver kangaroo juice effect in miniature 

Kangaroo because the throttle/bike is fairly instant in it's response? So let momentum carry you through rather than being on and off the throttle as you might be on a 2T? In which case, if you've not got enough momentum do you need to slip the clutch to feed the power in a little, other wise you lose traction?

[mercuryrev]

23 hours ago, markparrish said:

Reading back I can see now that the original poster was asking about a specific make and model. In my haste I thought he was considering the more general case of moving from 2stroke to 4 stroke, but, prompted to re read it by your question, I can see I was wrong in this respect. Perhaps, as I thought, it is good to hear that other 4 strokes are worth considering when you are thinking of a new purchase such as this? Maybe you think not, although I see you mentioned that your son also likes the Beta 4 stroke, so perhaps you might have used the opportunity to elaborate on this? The original poster did reply to me courteously so although you seem to have a problem with my contribution, I suspect he has not been overly upset by it and he will choose to ignore it as the ramblings of an old man if he wishes. I will continue to offer positive advice and support within the parameters of my limited experience but I will endeavour to keep more closely on topic in future. Thank you for putting me straight.

Certainly not upset by it at all! Thank you again for replying. To be honest I didn't notice you mentioned a Beta when I first read it and I'm fairly sure a 4 stroke Beta/Montesa responds in different ways to a 2T when ridden in a section. 

I have considered the Beta, but a (fairly new) friend suggested that I get a Montesa. Having recently considered one and then gone off the idea because I figured that maybe I should just stick to what I know, for him to suggest one having seen the level (or lack thereof) of my riding, made me think again.

But please, you took the time to reply to my request, you didn't have to, it took up your time, and you gave me an opinion, which I very much appreciate. So please don't stop posting, it's what keeps this and other forums going. 

[mercuryrev]

20 hours ago, lineaway said:

Yeah, sorry I am a little short at times. But there is a huge difference between the 4rt and the 4T. Both of these 4 strokes are excellent machines. Both are heavy compared to a two stroke, but can be ridden well with the right rider. I have never owned either, but have spent lots of hours on each. I spend as much time on these as I do my own two stroke. The Beta is all about the motor, point and shoot at anything with confidence. The 4RT is all about superb handling and suspension. Working on either machine is not fun. The Montesa wins hands down in that department, as no jetting is needed. We ride from 3000 ft to 12,000 ft elevation. So keeping the Beta running at it`s peak is a real pain as that carb is difficult to deal with.  I am coming to the end of my years of riding our Expert class. (Not near as hard as it used to be since we have Pro now.) I started in 1974 and 2020 might be the time to start riding an easy line and have more fun. I have always been a closet 4RT lover and I think the new 301 looks like the right bike for the job. But the 4RT is not for everyone. I have seen a lot of riders that have owned one, back on a two stroke within a year or two. Just as my son is getting off a TRS 300 and getting on a 300 Beta 4T. The Beta just puts a grin on his face, but I just think it`s the sound of the Arrow exhaust! 

  

 

Fuel injection is a real benefit living here, as we aren't too far out from the mountains. 

Maintenance isn't a chore for me, I really enjoy keeping a bike fighting fit, but take your point.

[mercuryrev]

20 hours ago, johnnyboxer said:

Well, what an interesting topic

I have had 4RT's since they came out, 2005..............always 250's and never owned a 260 ( I have ridden a 260, but couldn't tell much difference)

Now ride a 2007 Repsol

I have always struggled with grip, probably because I don't ride it consistently and I am a Clubman Novice now.

A few years ago, I bought a a TYZ 250 and now ride this more often as I seem to find it easier to get better results on

The TYZ is not your typical revvy 2T, as it has a larger flywheel and delivers torque in spades, will plonk from nothing and find grip where others fail to find any (loose banks and cambers) and therefore is not dissimilar to a 4T, in some respects

My TYZ has had the frame modified and the turning radius is now the same as a 4RT, at the headstock.............forks are are great and rear shock is acceptable

It has become my favourite Trials bike, in the stable

Love owning the 4RT, however much prefer riding the TYZ

 

I take it you're talking about grip in the wet and mud? How is it in the dry?

[mercuryrev]

6 hours ago, johnsandywhite said:

We don't ride on the road. Just all off track.

In France, unless it's your land, you should have insurance and the bike needs to be registered. Oh and you need a full bike licence for the road too..... 

Daft, but true.

[mercuryrev]

4 hours ago, jonnyc21 said:

There are a few differences that I have found between the 2T's I have had the chance to ride and my Montesa 4RT's. 

The most noticeable difference between them in my time riding the Montesa in comparison to the different 2T's I have been on is the way the power of the engine feels.  There is also a combination of other things that I think really stand out like how the clutch differs, engine braking, and subtle differences in weight with both a bit more and location (how the bike caries it).

This is my perception on the Montesa in comparison to the 2T's I have been on... 

1) Power: Fantastic mid range and very easy to modulate with throttle and can have you riding more with it than the clutch if you get lazy. 

2) Clutch: A bit stiffer pull (though not much) and can be a bit more on/off than most of the 2T's if not running a good oil for it but I have found it very manageable with good clutch oil.  (ELF, ATF, or Maxima 75 have all worked well for me, I suggest a search for ELF oil if you have more questions here)

3) Engine braking: Need to learn how to use it or avoid it by letting off the throttle or pulling the clutch longer or holding a touch of throttle for a second longer etc.  Just takes some adjustment time if you come from a 2T background.

4) Weight: Depending on the bike you compare I have seen between 6 to 10 lbs difference... To me the Montesa seems to hold its weight a bit lower than the 2T's I have been on.  So, when you find your balance it feels very planted and to me doesn't seem to take as much work to keep in place.  However it can also be harder to get back that balance if you let it go to far without correction. 

 

This is a few of the things I can think of off the top of my head. 

Thanks for your reply, really useful stuff.

How would you compare the initial power to a 2T? 

[duggan]

5 hours ago, mercuryrev said:

Thanks for your reply, really useful stuff.

How would you compare the initial power to a 2T? 

Hi 

I’ve had loads of 300cc 2 strokes, in comparison the power on the 4rt is noticeable stronger off the bottom, especially with the 300rr.
Biggest problem owning a montesa 4rt is trying not to look to smug when your poor 2 stroke riding buddies are pushing their bikes back to the van ???

 

[lineaway]

 That is not totally true. My 250 Beta can get about 10 more miles or more on a tank than my buddies 300RR. Now again my son`s 300 TRS was needing xtra fuel along with the 4RT. I have seen both add an xtra 32 oz, while I had plenty. Riding 20 plus mile loops you figure out mileage pretty fast.

[duggan]

51 minutes ago, lineaway said:

 That is not totally true. My 250 Beta can get about 10 more miles or more on a tank than my buddies 300RR. Now again my son`s 300 TRS was needing xtra fuel along with the 4RT. I have seen both add an xtra 32 oz, while I had plenty. Riding 20 plus mile loops you figure out mileage pretty fast.

Haha I wasn’t referring to fuel consumption but more like mechanical issues ending in a long push home ?

Good point tho, the 4rt’s give no warning when they run out of fuel and there’s no reserve to rely on. Always carry some extra! 

 

 

[Johnny Reggie]

8 hours ago, mercuryrev said:

Just the sort of description I am looking for, thanks for that. I think I've learnt from road bikes that weight is a fairly subjective thing, once you're used to it, a lighter bike can feel too light at first! 

From watching different videos, it seems that the Mont will drive from little or no throttle almost immediately and more so than, say a 250 2T? Is that a fair statement?

 

On 11/28/2019 at 8:58 PM, jimmyl said:

Gearing down I think spoils the 4rt best points in that it’s gear are long- first gear is amazing on std gearing- you can clean things in first that beta fixers are doing in 3rd.

i think the trick on a  4rt is to use the higher tick over  to your advantage. Maybe on a t2 you blip throttle and slip clutch against each other - modulatting both  On the mont you set the throttle steady and modulate the clutch against it .  This seems to help smooth out the torque spikes and minimise engine braking .

if you blip the throttle you get a kind of learner driver kangaroo juice effect in miniature 

The Mont does have a lovely tractor like quality, holding it on little more than Tickover it pulls and pulls. I wouldn’t say they they pull noticeably better than 2T from the bottom as such, what is noticeable is that the power is strong all through the range. I never feel like I’m looking for more - the engine is strong. 

I had been away from the sport for many years, so my reference point is Spanish 2Ts, got back on the bike and ended up on Monts. I’ve ridden 10 trials since April and practice regularly, love it and love the bike. 
There are plenty on this forum who can offer up genuine insight on how to ride the Monts to great effect. JimmyL I think is one such...

What I can say is I’ve been stunned by the Monts suspension and motor and overall capability. I have ridden modern 2 strokes and they are obviously good bikes, they are light and go where you want, but they leave me cold. After riding a 2T I feel like I should go looking for the parts that have fallen off them.....?

No turning back for me!

[Johnny Reggie]

Ps. let us know how it ends ??

[johnnyboxer]

9 hours ago, mercuryrev said:

I take it you're talking about grip in the wet and mud? How is it in the dry?

In the dry..............similar