Beginner Double Blip - bar cams

[bikerpet]

Part 3 in my micro series.

Clutch and throttle cameras synced to maybe give a better idea about timing. Obviously not much going on with the clutch in a Double Blip.

This clip I've tried to show the difference in reaction when the back wheel hits with throttle on and off - it's perhaps a bit subtle, but it should give the idea I think.

Throttle on and the bike jumps much more, not as smooth rolling over.

Don't take what I offer as reliable knowledge - I'm just a dabbler of little real skill!

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by bikerpet

[CptStarck]

This method really helped me to get the timing and feel the movement :

 

Push hard on the legs, release clutch and jump just before impacting the obstacle, let the bars come up...

Practice, film, repeat

[mercuryrev]

On 10/19/2020 at 1:09 PM, bikerpet said:

Part 3 in my micro series.

Clutch and throttle cameras synced to maybe give a better idea about timing. Obviously not much going on with the clutch in a Double Blip.

This clip I've tried to show the difference in reaction when the back wheel hits with throttle on and off - it's perhaps a bit subtle, but it should give the idea I think.

Throttle on and the bike jumps much more, not as smooth rolling over.

Don't take what I offer as reliable knowledge - I'm just a dabbler of little real skill!

 

Funnily enough I was practising this on Saturday.

From your video it seems like you are too late on the second blip of the throttle, you are also landing on top of the log rather than on the side. You need to feel the impact of the front wheel and then blip the throttle and release the clutch. If you wait too long then you lose the rebound from the compression of your forks. It is a question of timing that second blip/dump. It might also be easier to use the bigger logs you have?

From memory, the correct place to aim for with your front wheel is 3/4s of the way up the log. As you approach the log drop your knees and as the bike's suspension rebounds from that, blip the throttle to lift the front wheel. Once the front wheel hits, blip and dump.

Looking at your body position above you seem to be leaning too far forward as well, so that you're fighting that wheel coming up for the second time. Your clutch is your safety net, if the front goes too high, pull it in and the wheel will drop.

Keep filming what you do, it really helps to spot what you're doing.

[bikerpet]

8 hours ago, mercuryrev said:

Funnily enough I was practising this on Saturday.

From your video it seems like you are too late on the second blip of the throttle, you are also landing on top of the log rather than on the side. You need to feel the impact of the front wheel and then blip the throttle and release the clutch. If you wait too long then you lose the rebound from the compression of your forks. It is a question of timing that second blip/dump. It might also be easier to use the bigger logs you have?

From memory, the correct place to aim for with your front wheel is 3/4s of the way up the log. As you approach the log drop your knees and as the bike's suspension rebounds from that, blip the throttle to lift the front wheel. Once the front wheel hits, blip and dump.

Looking at your body position above you seem to be leaning too far forward as well, so that you're fighting that wheel coming up for the second time. Your clutch is your safety net, if the front goes too high, pull it in and the wheel will drop.

Keep filming what you do, it really helps to spot what you're doing.

Thanks for the feedback - always trying different things to find out what works.

Timing is certainly the key to these things, watching that video I actually wondered if the second blip was a bit early - you can see the throttle winding on well before the wheel actually hits. 

You could be right on the "too far forward". I think of it that the rider needs to accelerate their body forward to where the bike is about to be just a moment before the bike accelerates there, otherwise you get left behind as the bike can accelerate much faster than the rider can, or you have to hold onto the the bike to let it drag you forward which stops it from reacting quickly. Not sure I've explained that well ... Anyway, there's probably a fine line between getting forward too far / too early and getting left behind.

I'm not sure I quite agree on the "landing on top" on this one, here's a still frame from that video as the wheel impacts. If it was much lower it would still be on the ground!

, 

I also think there's a misunderstanding around "Double-Blip" vs "Zap". Rightly or wrongly this is the way I refer to them:

• Double-Blip - there is no clutch use at all. The Blip refers to using the throttle only. The clutch is out when you start riding toward the obstacle and stays there the entire time.
• Zap - the clutch is used in conjunction with throttle.

So this video is about the Double Blip - no clutch use at all, the tiny bit of lever movement in my video is just the free play. This also applies to CptStarck's post above, Jan Peters is showing a Zap, not a Double Blip.

Pat Smage & Ryan Young Double Blip video.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by bikerpet

[mercuryrev]

19 hours ago, bikerpet said:

Thanks for the feedback - always trying different things to find out what works.

Timing is certainly the key to these things, watching that video I actually wondered if the second blip was a bit early - you can see the throttle winding on well before the wheel actually hits. 

You could be right on the "too far forward". I think of it that the rider needs to accelerate their body forward to where the bike is about to be just a moment before the bike accelerates there, otherwise you get left behind as the bike can accelerate much faster than the rider can, or you have to hold onto the the bike to let it drag you forward which stops it from reacting quickly. Not sure I've explained that well ... Anyway, there's probably a fine line between getting forward too far / too early and getting left behind.

I'm not sure I quite agree on the "landing on top" on this one, here's a still frame from that video as the wheel impacts. If it was much lower it would still be on the ground!

, 

I also think there's a misunderstanding around "Double-Blip" vs "Zap". Rightly or wrongly this is the way I refer to them:

• Double-Blip - there is no clutch use at all. The Blip refers to using the throttle only. The clutch is out when you start riding toward the obstacle and stays there the entire time.
• Zap - the clutch is used in conjunction with throttle.

So this video is about the Double Blip - no clutch use at all, the tiny bit of lever movement in my video is just the free play. This also applies to CptStarck's post above, Jan Peters is showing a Zap, not a Double Blip.

Pat Smage & Ryan Young Double Blip video.

 

Firstly apologies for saying you were landing on top, I think when I wrote that I was looking at the still from your video.

The difference between a zap and a double blip is shown really well in this video.... (Method 1 is a zap and method 2 is a double blip). It's in French but does have 'quite' good subtitles. However Jimmy films it so well that it's pretty self explanatory. Unfortunately the music tends to drown out the noise of the engine.

What you're trying to do is a double blip. A zap is more or less a wheelie and let the rear wheel hit the obstacle and drive up.

The clutch is used in a double blip to add more power. If you are clearing logs of the size in your video, you don't need the clutch. Perhaps using a bigger log would help you. Then you might/could use the clutch to lift the front and then use it again to lift the rear wheel onto the log.

Have a watch of Jimmy's video, you can even ask him a question, he usually replies.

Keep going with it, it will come. Trials is as much a mental sport as a physical one, take your time and think it all through.

[al_orange]

On 10/27/2020 at 5:26 PM, mercuryrev said:

What you're trying to do is a double blip. A zap is more or less a wheelie and let the rear wheel hit the obstacle and drive up.

The clutch is used in a double blip to add more power. If you are clearing logs of the size in your video, you don't need the clutch. Perhaps using a bigger log would help you. Then you might/could use the clutch to lift the front and then use it again to lift the rear wheel onto the log.

Interesting. Maybe it's the other way around in France but in pretty much the whole English speaking trials world (UK, USA, Canada, AUS at least), the definition of a "zap" is the use of the clutch to deliver a burst of power. In the case of a "jap zap" (often abbreviated to "zap") the zap is used specifically to attain rear wheel lift (generally in order to land the rear wheel on top or very near the top of the obstacle), in direct contrast to a double blip which (or a roll up) which relies on driving the rear wheel into the obstacle. It gets confusing because you can get rear wheel lift without the clutch - hence the difference between a double blip and a zap. 

Personally, I think there's more confusion between a double blip and a roll up as there is pretty much nothing a double blip can achieve that a roll up doesn't, but the double blip is more controlled and is used more easily when there is little run up or momentum. I prefer to think of a double blip as having two distinct and obvious blips - one to lift and then one to drive. Whereas, even in the Ryan Young video above, I'd call that a roll-up as there is a smooth delivery of continuous momentum. I believe he uses the two terms interchangeably. 

I'm not entirely sure why this issue is confusing or contentious but if it helps create useful and clear training videos then that's a good thing!

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by al_orange

[mercuryrev]

On 11/5/2020 at 11:20 AM, al_orange said:

Interesting. Maybe it's the other way around in France but in pretty much the whole English speaking trials world (UK, USA, Canada, AUS at least), the definition of a "zap" is the use of the clutch to deliver a burst of power. In the case of a "jap zap" (often abbreviated to "zap") the zap is used specifically to attain rear wheel lift (generally in order to land the rear wheel on top or very near the top of the obstacle), in direct contrast to a double blip which (or a roll up) which relies on driving the rear wheel into the obstacle. It gets confusing because you can get rear wheel lift without the clutch - hence the difference between a double blip and a zap. 

Personally, I think there's more confusion between a double blip and a roll up as there is pretty much nothing a double blip can achieve that a roll up doesn't, but the double blip is more controlled and is used more easily when there is little run up or momentum. I prefer to think of a double blip as having two distinct and obvious blips - one to lift and then one to drive. Whereas, even in the Ryan Young video above, I'd call that a roll-up as there is a smooth delivery of continuous momentum. I believe he uses the two terms interchangeably. 

I'm not entirely sure why this issue is confusing or contentious but if it helps create useful and clear training videos then that's a good thing!

 

This whole discussion seems to revolve around using, or not using, the clutch and I have no idea why.

I don't think I said don't use the clutch when doing a zap, did I?

As far as I'm aware it's possible to use the clutch in pretty much any manoeuvre. The use of the clutch isn't reserved for a zap, nor not allowed in a double blip, is it? My point is if the obstacle necessitates it, you have to use the clutch to give you more instant power.

The confusion seems to be compounded by different videos showing the same technique but then calling it something different.

I am very far from being an expert and I appreciate that technique is a huge part of this game but I don't feel the need to 'label' and put a finite definition on a technique. If I need to get over a rock, log or bank, I need to do two things..... unweight and possibly lift the front and get the rear to drive, or roll, over it, with, or without, lifting the rear.

Just out of interest, and this is no way a criticism..... If I need to climb a five/six foot, very steeply angled bank and I rev the bike with the clutch in, dump the clutch (thereby lifting the front wheel), then without using a kicker, I hit and drive up the bank. What would you call that? A roll up? A zap? Splat sans kicker?

Also, if I want to get over a large tree trunk and I use the clutch to lift the front wheel onto the log and then as the front suspension rebounds, I give the bike a second blip (as well as dumping the clutch) and I unweighted the pegs lifting the rear wheel either on top of, or 3/4 up, the log.... Is that a zap or a double blip?

I can see the need to apply labels when teaching a technique but as above, when different labels are applied to the same technique by different people it gets very confusing.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by mercuryrev

[bikerpet]

10 hours ago, mercuryrev said:

As far as I'm aware it's possible to use the clutch in pretty much any manoeuvre. The use of the clutch isn't reserved for a zap, nor not allowed in a double blip, is it? My point is if the obstacle necessitates it, you have to use the clutch to give you more instant power.

Of course, but that doesn't mean there aren't specific techniques that use combinations in particular ways.

Quote

The confusion seems to be compounded by different videos showing the same technique but then calling it something different.

Agreed.

Quote

I am very far from being an expert and I appreciate that technique is a huge part of this game but I don't feel the need to 'label' and put a finite definition on a technique. If I need to get over a rock, log or bank, I need to do two things..... unweight and possibly lift the front and get the rear to drive, or roll, over it, with, or without, lifting the rear.

Sure, but we humans move one foot in front of the other at different speeds. It's a heck of a lot easier to say "walk", "jog" or "run" than describe exactly what you mean (what are the critical differences between walk and run - that'll be a good long sentence at least). When we come to something more complex like coordinating throttle, clutch & weighting, terminology properly used can save an enormous amount of confusion. There's no way Raga & Bou think about doing a "blip", "zap" or "splat", they just do what they know they need to. But for us bumblers we need to have some idea of how to put together combinations of inputs in a sensible way to get a reasonable output. If you want to jump the rear wheel cleanly onto the top of a knee high obstacle what do you do? I'll bet it'll likely look rather like a zap, but I'll also bet it's going to be much clearer to say "zap" than describe the whole sequence, as long as everyone understands the term similarly.

It's definitely mostly about learning and sharing knowledge - we all mix and match combinations of actions when we ride, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. It's only when we come to talk about it that we need language and words to describe things, and language is nothing if not shared agreement on what words mean.

Quote

Just out of interest, and this is no way a criticism..... If I need to climb a five/six foot, very steeply angled bank and I rev the bike with the clutch in, dump the clutch (thereby lifting the front wheel), then without using a kicker, I hit and drive up the bank. What would you call that? A roll up? A zap? Splat sans kicker?

No question to me - it's a roll up. When you actually arrive at the obstacle you're rolling up it. You haven't launched the bike at it airborne, and you haven't used the obstacle to alter the way the bike is responding.

Quote

Also, if I want to get over a large tree trunk and I use the clutch to lift the front wheel onto the log and then as the front suspension rebounds, I give the bike a second blip (as well as dumping the clutch) and I unweighted the pegs lifting the rear wheel either on top of, or 3/4 up, the log.... Is that a zap or a double blip?

Also quite clear to me - It's a zap. Because you use the combination of loading the suspension on the obstacle and a clutch dump. You can't clutch dump without giving some throttle so that's more or less irrelevant, you could get the same result by just holding the throttle open and slipping the clutch between the the front wheel lift and the second clutch dump - would that be a single blip or still a zap?

Quote

I can see the need to apply labels when teaching a technique but as above, when different labels are applied to the same technique by different people it gets very confusing.

Exactly. Time and again in these and other forums things go off on tangents while people come to agreement (or disagreement) on what technique's being talked about. That's why I've proposed a sticky in the Technique thread so it's easy to refer to and everyone can move on.

This thread would have 5 or 6 less posts if we all called the same combination of actions the same thing!

[didado]

@bikerpet As a newbie I appreciate the 'handlebar-controls' video's and also the clearly defined definitions of the techniques. Makes communicating much easier when learning.

I just looked at the Ryan Young DVD video's again:

Double Blib or roll up: In the video there's no distinct two blips but a first little bit of throttle to lift the front wheel which is not shut off but maintained at that minor throttle position until the front wheel hits the object. At or just before rebound of the front suspension against the object the throttle is opened up more aka second blip. The rear wheel hits the object and the wheel rolls up and over the object.

Though he does not mention the use of the clutch by listening to the sound I can hear that there's no use of the clutch when he opens the throttle again in other words when the second 'blip' comes on. Though there's often a distinct second blip when people use the roll up/double blip, it seems the clutch is not used. Perhaps the term double blip causes all the confusion and the alternative term roll up is better since this technique can but doesn't necessarily require a distinct second blip, just a bit of throttle and then more throttle.

(Jap) Zap: Ryan says used for undercut objects such as a undercut log or a picknick table (And for slippery logs etc). Since it is undercut there's nowhere for the rear wheel to hit. According to Ryan the second blip of the throttle loads the suspension and the rear wheel is launched of the ground directly on top of the object. It doesn't hit the object on the front it lands on top.

He literally mentions with zap: you can also (but not persé) use the clutch when the front tire hits. ...We pop the clutch so that the front wheel comes up really high which helps us to hold a wheelie ...

What he emphasizes with the zap several times is: "... so we set the tire on top..." 

So rear wheel hits the object on the front and Roll's (DB) up the object and Zap launches rear wheel off the ground to top of object. Not my words but Ryan's.

Thanks again for the video's. They really helped me out.

Edited November 29, 2020 by didado

[lineaway]

 Most of the problems are caused my non trials riders learning to do advanced moves without ever riding organized trials and mixing the moves up without knowing the primary purpose of each move and then making a training video about it. Then also the terminology is different world wide.

 Roll up is used on 90% of things you ever ride.

The double blip came along as a means to get the old heavy bikes with non working suspension up and over an obstacle that otherwise you would hit your skid plate. First blip is the front wheel coming up, you kiss the front wheel off the obstacle and at the same time is the second blip to clear the skid plate. Then it was discovered to use the compression in your favor and physically jump with your body and hence it was really a bunny hop you did at the end. 

The Jap Zap came along about the time of the monos became watercooled and the suspension just started to get better. To truly get the suspension to work, you would hit the obstacle hard and low to get the suspension to fully compress and add into it the clutch dump and the bike would truly lift over an undercut that was unridable before. You would have to hit so low, that you thought you would crash. I know as I smashed my nuts all the time learning to do this move on my brand new `92 Beta Zero.

 It`s good to understand the history and time line from all this. As you now know the moves have all been mixed together nowadays. That`s because the bikes have got better and better. You now can zap off of just about anything as the suspension works so good on modern bikes. But it is still all about timing.

 The splatter is just a jump into a wall or obstacle with the rear wheel leading the way. It can be done with speed, momentum from the clutch, from a stand still with a clutch dump, off a kicker, and the really good riders can do it off flat ground. Mainly you just need the balls to do it. But that is why its called a splatter, if you miss you will splat all over the ground. 

[bikerpet]

12 hours ago, didado said:

@bikerpet As a newbie I appreciate the 'handlebar-controls' video's and also the clearly defined definitions of the techniques. Makes communicating much easier when learning.

I just looked at the Ryan Young DVD video's again:

Double Blib or roll up: In the video there's no distinct two blips but a first little bit of throttle to lift the front wheel which is not shut off but maintained at that minor throttle position until the front wheel hits the object. At or just before rebound of the front suspension against the object the throttle is opened up more aka second blip. The rear wheel hits the object and the wheel rolls up and over the object.

Though he does not mention the use of the clutch by listening to the sound I can hear that there's no use of the clutch when he opens the throttle again in other words when the second 'blip' comes on. Though there's often a distinct second blip when people use the roll up/double blip, it seems the clutch is not used. Perhaps the term double blip causes all the confusion and the alternative term roll up is better since this technique can but doesn't necessarily require a distinct second blip, just a bit of throttle and then more throttle.

I think it's better to keep each technique distinct when talking about them, although as Lineaway outlines, in reality they get blended in different ways.

A Roll-Up has basically a single throttle hit - whether you roll it on & hold it, roll it on and then increase it or roll it on then close it is just nuances. Maybe a "roll on - hold - roll on more" might be considered a Double Blip, not sure on that one, probably doesn't matter. 

A Double Blip has two distinct blips of the throttle, on-off-on.

A double blip and a roll-up are used in similar situations with modern bikes making easy work of either, but they aren't necessarily the same technique. The thing is that the Double Blip is probably a stepping stone toward learning the timing for a Zap, so they shouldn't be considered the same thing. Roll-up for the basic technique of getting the front up and letting inertia carry you over, Blip for developing better throttle timing, wheel placement, jump timing etc.

(Jap) Zap: Ryan says used for undercut objects such as a undercut log or a picknick table (And for slippery logs etc). Since it is undercut there's nowhere for the rear wheel to hit. According to Ryan the second blip of the throttle loads the suspension and the rear wheel is launched of the ground directly on top of the object. It doesn't hit the object on the front it lands on top.

He literally mentions with zap: you can also (but not persé) use the clutch when the front tire hits. ...We pop the clutch so that the front wheel comes up really high which helps us to hold a wheelie ...

What he emphasizes with the zap several times is: "... so we set the tire on top..." 

So rear wheel hits the object on the front and Roll's (DB) up the object and Zap launches rear wheel off the ground to top of object. Not my words but Ryan's.

I find this idea of landing directly on top a bit odd. I can think of plenty of examples from Bou, Raga etc where they pretty clearly do a (Jap) Zap with clutch but don't land the rear wheel on top of the (usually huge) object. I can't see that it matters where the rear wheel lands on the object, it's all about the particular technique used to get it there

Consider too that a Splatter can also get the rear wheel directly to the top of the obstacle, yet it's definitely not a Zap. The zap has a front wheel impact first, a Splat does not. The trouble with Splatting to the top of the obstacle would be that unless you smack the rear into the face of the obstacle there's nothing to stop the bike continuing to rotate backwards and doing a backflip - generally not a good outcome.

As Lineaway also says, "But it is still all about timing." I think this is the aspect that pretty much requires the clutch in 90% of zaps, rolling the throttle on is too slow and imprecise compared to dumping the clutch, so the timing just can't be accurate enough. Also if you define two techniques as interchangeable then there's no point having two techniques. Obviously (to me anyway) Double Blip & Zap cater to different circumstances even though they can be used interchangeably in some. A Double Blip isn't going to get you up a big overhang, while it is probably the least effort and management to get up a slightly sloping sharp edged step. 

Thanks again for the video's. They really helped me out.

No worries. I'm still trying to find someone who can actually ride well to fit cameras to so we get a better demo.

 

[didado]

13 hours ago, bikerpet said:

I find this idea of landing directly on top a bit odd. I can think of plenty of examples from Bou, Raga etc where they pretty clearly do a (Jap) Zap with clutch but don't land the rear wheel on top of the (usually huge) object. I can't see that it matters where the rear wheel lands on the object, it's all about the particular technique used to get it there

Interestingly, I also have a video of Jordi Tarrés, former seven time world champion who describes and shows on video exactly how Ryan Young describes the Zap landing the rear wheel on top using the clutch twice. And that also goes for the other techniques such as roll up and splatter which he describes as Ryan Young.

Neither describes a fourth, double blip without a clutch. I assume they see that particular clutchless double blip technique as a slight variant on the roll up. That's why Ryan Young literally says in several video's: "The double blip or roll up..."

In below video at 10:07 he starts demoing the double blip technique with and without the clutch. His definition of the double blip is not clutchless double blips but mostly about "driving the rear wheel into..." The zap is getting the rear tire on top according to him
 

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by didado

[lineaway]

 Thats a newer video from a class within the last year. He is showing a technique that he has been pushing lately, the bucking bronco or somethong like that. He started pushing that dumb way of riding due to the fact 60% of his students will never get the timing right of a proper jap zap. 

 The reason it is dumb, just try that on a wet log vs using a proper jap zap of landing the rear tire on top of the log.

[bikerpet]

8 hours ago, didado said:

Interestingly, I also have a video of Jordi Tarrés, former seven time world champion who describes and shows on video exactly how Ryan Young describes the Zap landing the rear wheel on top using the clutch twice. And that also goes for the other techniques such as roll up and splatter which he describes as Ryan Young.

Neither describes a fourth, double blip without a clutch. I assume they see that particular clutchless double blip technique as a slight variant on the roll up. That's why Ryan Young literally says in several video's: "The double blip or roll up..."

In below video at 10:07 he starts demoing the double blip technique with and without the clutch. His definition of the double blip is not clutchless double blips but mostly about "driving the rear wheel into..." The zap is getting the rear tire on top according to him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txObLiiRAZE

https://youtu.be/EQUKvFvmosI

I reckon the Double Blip exists and is a specific technique.

I'm certainly not going to say Ryan and Jordi are wrong, that would be pretty stupid, but I know from years of teaching complex skills (I taught skiing around the world for many years) that often it's necessary to "abbreviate" explanations for the sake of brevity and understanding of the goal at hand. Perhaps it's just quicker, simpler and clearer to say "land the wheel on top" to give people a clear understanding of the goal?

For the most part I suspect that's accurate - if you can land the wheel on top, a zap will get you there nicely, if you can't get to the top maybe a splatter is more appropriate. But what happens if you try a zap and don't get as much lift as hoped and you land a bit low? It's still quite possible to get to the top - does that mean that your failed zap is now a splat? No, they're distinctly different techniques. If the zap developed for undercuts, is it still a zap if you do it on something you could roll-up? I say it is.

For the double blip it's similar I think, but as Lineaway said modern bikes let us blur the distinctions pretty easily. If a roll-up is a simply driving the rear wheel in, then I guess a Double Blip is a roll-up, so is a rev & drop the clutch and so is wheelie-ing into an obstacle. But they are different techniques.

I don't say this just to split hairs, I think it's fundamental - a technique is what you do, not the result you're after. The definition of "technique" is a way of carrying out a particular task or a particular method of doing an activity. So the end result is not a technique - different techniques can be applied to get to the same end result. Therefore a Double Blip is not the same as a single-blip roll-up, and a "clutchless zap" is not the same as a clutched zap even though they have similarities and share the same end result (I don't think a clutchless zap will get me far though).

So I still see:

Roll-up - single throttle

Double Blip - two throttles

Zap - two throttles, with clutch (or two clutches)

Splatter - single clutch/throttle, landing directly on the obstacle rear wheel first.

Roll-up through Zap provide a nice progression of developing skills leading into each other, developing throttle, clutch and timing as things progress. Splatter uses the same skill set, but the big difference is possibly sheer bravery to hurl the bike at an immovable object and hope you neither loop out nor slam into it face first!

 

 

 

[didado]

13 hours ago, bikerpet said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txObLiiRAZE

https://youtu.be/EQUKvFvmosI

I reckon the Double Blip exists and is a specific technique.

I'm certainly not going to say Ryan and Jordi are wrong, that would be pretty stupid, but I know from years of teaching complex skills (I taught skiing around the world for many years) that often it's necessary to "abbreviate" explanations for the sake of brevity and understanding of the goal at hand. Perhaps it's just quicker, simpler and clearer to say "land the wheel on top" to give people a clear understanding of the goal?

For the most part I suspect that's accurate - if you can land the wheel on top, a zap will get you there nicely, if you can't get to the top maybe a splatter is more appropriate. But what happens if you try a zap and don't get as much lift as hoped and you land a bit low? It's still quite possible to get to the top - does that mean that your failed zap is now a splat? No, they're distinctly different techniques. If the zap developed for undercuts, is it still a zap if you do it on something you could roll-up? I say it is.

For the double blip it's similar I think, but as Lineaway said modern bikes let us blur the distinctions pretty easily. If a roll-up is a simply driving the rear wheel in, then I guess a Double Blip is a roll-up, so is a rev & drop the clutch and so is wheelie-ing into an obstacle. But they are different techniques.

I don't say this just to split hairs, I think it's fundamental - a technique is what you do, not the result you're after. The definition of "technique" is a way of carrying out a particular task or a particular method of doing an activity. So the end result is not a technique - different techniques can be applied to get to the same end result. Therefore a Double Blip is not the same as a single-blip roll-up, and a "clutchless zap" is not the same as a clutched zap even though they have similarities and share the same end result (I don't think a clutchless zap will get me far though).

So I still see:

Roll-up - single throttle

Double Blip - two throttles

Zap - two throttles, with clutch (or two clutches)

Splatter - single clutch/throttle, landing directly on the obstacle rear wheel first.

Roll-up through Zap provide a nice progression of developing skills leading into each other, developing throttle, clutch and timing as things progress. Splatter uses the same skill set, but the big difference is possibly sheer bravery to hurl the bike at an immovable object and hope you neither loop out nor slam into it face first!

 

 

 

Thanks and I'm happy with the different distinctions as it makes learning or teaching easier.

However, you send me two video links where in both video's they say: "the purpose of the double blip is driving the wheel into the object"

In the second Double Blip video with Pat at 2 minutes he talks about bringing in the clutch at the double blip for higher obstacles. He's still driving the rear wheel into the object and rolling up.

In this video Pat is demonstrating the zap and basically he's telling and showing the viewer to land the rear tire where the front tire hit which is near the top or on top. Several times he says that and also several times he says on top.

In the next video he's using a zap to cross a slippery log at an angle and again he says 'landing the rear wheel on top'. 

So from a standpoint of labelling different techniques I think there's more to it then just double blips are clutchless and zaps are two throttles with clutch. Each has a different purpose. 

But it doesn't really matter. Your controls-video's are helpful and I hope you find a skilled rider to video his/her clutch/throttle control.