Beginner Double Blip - bar cams

[bikerpet]

14 hours ago, didado said:

Thanks and I'm happy with the different distinctions as it makes learning or teaching easier.

However, you send me two video links where in both video's they say: "the purpose of the double blip is driving the wheel into the object"

In the second Double Blip video with Pat at 2 minutes he talks about bringing in the clutch at the double blip for higher obstacles. He's still driving the rear wheel into the object and rolling up.

In this video Pat is demonstrating the zap and basically he's telling and showing the viewer to land the rear tire where the front tire hit which is near the top or on top. Several times he says that and also several times he says on top.

In the next video he's using a zap to cross a slippery log at an angle and again he says 'landing the rear wheel on top'. 

So from a standpoint of labelling different techniques I think there's more to it then just double blips are clutchless and zaps are two throttles with clutch. Each has a different purpose. 

But it doesn't really matter. Your controls-video's are helpful and I hope you find a skilled rider to video his/her clutch/throttle control.

Seems like my definitions need refining then.

I'm still not at all convinced about the zap needing to land on top. "Near the top" is not the same as "on top" and I've hunted around on YouTube and found various videos of zaps (by very good riders) where they land the rear tyre significantly below the top. I reckon the critical thing is that you're trying to generate lift and get the wheel to land high up on the object. How high up depends on your goal (a slippery log might require it to land right on top, a grippy rock could land much lower). At some point the zap will fail because there simply isn't enough forward momentum to pin the tyre to the obstacle long & hard enough to get it to climb the remaining distance, at this point a Splat might be more appropriate. So the Zap must include jumping the rear wheel high onto the obstacle.

I still can't quite come at a clutchless zap, although I can accept that skilled riders can lift the rear wheel pretty high with just two throttle blips and excellent timing - Heck, Toni Bou can "zap" higher than I can get even close to with his engine completely off! I reckon that all falls into the "blended" basket, a blend of blip & splat. That probably comes from my tendency to break things down into building blocks for learning and progression.

The Double Blip - I think you're quite right that the blip is a "drive the wheel in and roll up" technique, so that's got to be part of the definition. Perhaps there's a "Basic Dbl Blip" with no clutch and a more advanced one with the clutch? But neither have the goal of jumping the rear wheel (although this often happens a little with strong blips).

Roll-up - accelerate the rear wheel into the obstacle, then let inertia carry the bike up. The front wheel either rolls up, is lofted above the obstacle or touches the obstacle on the way up. There is only a single blip of the throttle (or clutch dump).

Double blip - Two distinct "Blips", either throttle alone or with clutch dump. First one lifts the front wheel, second occurs when the front wheel impacts the obstacle. The rear wheel is driven into the obstacle causing it to climb up.

Zap - Land the front wheel onto the face of the obstacle, compressing suspension. Clutch dump and jump to lift the rear wheel high onto the obstacle.

Splat - jump the bike, landing directly on the face of the obstacle rear wheel first, using the traction gained to climb the remainder.

If you take these 4 as a sort of linear Venn diagram then there'll be areas where they intersect as one technique blends into another. So a Double Blip might use a bit of clutch and jump like a zap, but it's still primarily a roll-up type technique. A Zap might be really strong so the rear wheel smacks hard into the obstacle somewhere up the face and uses the traction gained to get the rest of the way up just like a splatter, but if the front wheel hits the obstacle first then it's always a zap, not a splatter.

Now to go out and ride.

[didado]

2 hours ago, bikerpet said:

Seems like my definitions need refining then.

I'm still not at all convinced about the zap needing to land on top. "Near the top" is not the same as "on top" and I've hunted around on YouTube and found various videos of zaps (by very good riders) where they land the rear tyre significantly below the top. I reckon the critical thing is that you're trying to generate lift and get the wheel to land high up on the object. How high up depends on your goal (a slippery log might require it to land right on top, a grippy rock could land much lower). At some point the zap will fail because there simply isn't enough forward momentum to pin the tyre to the obstacle long & hard enough to get it to climb the remaining distance, at this point a Splat might be more appropriate. So the Zap must include jumping the rear wheel high onto the obstacle.

I still can't quite come at a clutchless zap, although I can accept that skilled riders can lift the rear wheel pretty high with just two throttle blips and excellent timing - Heck, Toni Bou can "zap" higher than I can get even close to with his engine completely off! I reckon that all falls into the "blended" basket, a blend of blip & splat. That probably comes from my tendency to break things down into building blocks for learning and progression.

The Double Blip - I think you're quite right that the blip is a "drive the wheel in and roll up" technique, so that's got to be part of the definition. Perhaps there's a "Basic Dbl Blip" with no clutch and a more advanced one with the clutch? But neither have the goal of jumping the rear wheel (although this often happens a little with strong blips).

Roll-up - accelerate the rear wheel into the obstacle, then let inertia carry the bike up. The front wheel either rolls up, is lofted above the obstacle or touches the obstacle on the way up. There is only a single blip of the throttle (or clutch dump).

Double blip - Two distinct "Blips", either throttle alone or with clutch dump. First one lifts the front wheel, second occurs when the front wheel impacts the obstacle. The rear wheel is driven into the obstacle causing it to climb up.

Zap - Land the front wheel onto the face of the obstacle, compressing suspension. Clutch dump and jump to lift the rear wheel high onto the obstacle.

Splat - jump the bike, landing directly on the face of the obstacle rear wheel first, using the traction gained to climb the remainder.

If you take these 4 as a sort of linear Venn diagram then there'll be areas where they intersect as one technique blends into another. So a Double Blip might use a bit of clutch and jump like a zap, but it's still primarily a roll-up type technique. A Zap might be really strong so the rear wheel smacks hard into the obstacle somewhere up the face and uses the traction gained to get the rest of the way up just like a splatter, but if the front wheel hits the obstacle first then it's always a zap, not a splatter.

Now to go out and ride.

I think you are taking the zap-on-top too literally ? It seems according to Tarres, Ryan and Pat that the intended purpose of the zap is to land on top or as close as possible or like Pat says where you land your front tire (somewhat near the top).

In essence when I look at Pat and at Tarres video's the zap is about the rear wheel jumping off the ground towards a high part of the object preferably near the top by weighing/unweighing the pegs heavily and timing that with second blip and clutch dump.

It makes sense when watching Pat's video with the undercut log. With the zap you want to jump the rear wheel higher then the undercut. In case of the video where he approaches the slippery log at an angle he zaps so there's minimal contact of the rear wheel with the slippery surface. Whether that's exactly on top or slightly lower is not the point as long as the contact is minimal so your rear wheel doesn't go sliding sideways. To do that you have to 'zap' the rear wheel onto the object as high as possible.

That is very different from the Double Blip in their video's where the rear wheel on the double blip more or less doesn't really leave the ground, at most just a bit, but slams into the object near the ground and then rolls up the object. 

Indeed, I'm going out to ride today

Edited December 2, 2020 by didado

[bikerpet]

2 minutes ago, didado said:

I think you are taking the zap-on-top too literally ? It seems according to Tarres, Ryan and Pat that the intended purpose of the zap is to land on top or as close as possible or like Pat says where you land your front tire (somewhat near the top).

In essence when I look at Pat and at Tarres video's the zap is about the rear wheel jumping off the ground towards a high part of the object preferably near the top by weighing the pegs heavily and timing that with second blip and clutch dump.

It makes sense when watching Pat's video with the undercut log. With the zap you want to jump the rear wheel higher then the undercut. In case of the video where he approaches the slippery log at an angle he zaps so there's minimal contact of the rear wheel with the slippery surface. Whether that's exactly on top or slightly lower is not the point as long as the contact is minimal so your rear wheel doesn't go sliding sideways. To do that you have to 'zap' the rear wheel onto the object as high as possible.

That is very different from the Double Blip in their video's where the rear wheel on the double blip more or less doesn't really leave the ground, at most just a bit, but slams into the object near the ground and then rolls up the object. 

Indeed, I'm going out to ride today

I think we're now saying the same thing. That's pretty much what I updated my definitions to I think.

But I did take the "on top" pretty literally as that was what you said the videos were saying.

I had an hour or so riding until I got too hot today. I even made a slight improvement to my zaps - hooray.

[didado]

On 12/2/2020 at 6:44 AM, bikerpet said:

I think we're now saying the same thing. That's pretty much what I updated my definitions to I think.

But I did take the "on top" pretty literally as that was what you said the videos were saying.

I had an hour or so riding until I got too hot today. I even made a slight improvement to my zaps - hooray.

Sounds good and glad to hear you had a good ride.