ludde Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 (edited) I haven't written anything here in years but now I have information that I think some will be interested in. This will be quite technical so bear with me. I am writing this from the standpoint that you know how the use the HRC software to change the mapping in the ECU. More info to come. Background Almost a year ago now I came across some software developed to flash the ECU of different Honda motorcycles. Being an engineer I started to wonder if it would be possible to use on the 4rt. I have always been annoyed that the HRC software only lets you modify fuel and spark advance in relation to some maps that are unknown. After some research I found that the flash software monitors if the ignition (12V) is on to know if the ECU is alive or not. Well, the 4rt does not have a battery and the red 4P connector in the harness which you use to communicate with the ECU does not have any 12V or ground wires. So an adapter harness needed to be created. The connectors are Sumitomo HM090 series. I used the 12V and ground from the black 2P connectors the you use to power the ECU and then made a harness with a 4P connector which looks like this. It worked! I was able to read a 32kB bin file from the ECU. Having had 4rts since they were launched I had a couple of throttle bodies laying around. So a total of 5 bins were read. Now the big job of trying to interpret the hex code started. I won't bore you with all the details so here is what has been found out so far. Information ECUs read (as of now) 16400-NN4-XXX G11, H01, J11, L11, L72, M11, M62, M71, P01, P71 There are 2 main softwares used since 2009 I think, NN4D101 and NN4G202. Non of the software send any diagnostic information via the K-line sadly enough. NN4D101: Switchable between MAP1 and MAP2 on the handlebar. (3ED/4ED) HRC programmable 1 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis. 2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. NN4G202: Street legal version (ED/2ED) NOT HRC programmable 2 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis. 2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. Fuel 2 maps, one based on RPM and IAP (inlet air pressure), one based on RPM and TPS (throttle position sensor). No clue yet to what the numbers mean other than higher number is more fuel. How they work in relation to each other I am not sure of right now. WIP I think there is also some kind of acceleration enrichment. WIP Spark advance 1 map, based on RPM and TPS. The numbers are still a bit of a guess but they seems to be about right. There is also a transient spark advance which adds or subtracts from the main map. This is active when you snap the throttle and the engine is not able to keep up with what you are demanding. Other functions RPM Limiter, looks like 3 different limiters. Only one has been confirmed. The different softwares G11 2009-2012 Montesa ED/2ED This is the oldest software I have right now. Is very similar to H01 but has less fuel since the Montesa still was 250cc. H01 2010 HRC RTL260F This software has two very different maps. Map 1 is you standard map providing as much power as possible. Map 2 is a very soft map with lowered spark advance and a low transient spark as well. This takes away all the punch the engine has but is great in slippery conditions. You have to rev the engine if you need some power but the traction is great. J11 2014 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED Very similar to the H01 softwares Map 1 with small changes to fuel and ignition. Probably due the difference in exhaust muffler between the Honda RTL and the Montesa. L11 2016 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED For 2016 a new fuel pump was fitted which changed the fuel and ignition maps a lot. L72 2016 Montesa 300RR 4ED The 2016 300RR has a 2 ring piston compared to the later 300RR which has a three ring piston (the same as the 260 but bigger). Therefore this software has a unique settings which is different to both L11 and M71. Map1 has lower spark advance on small throttle openings making it softer than map2. Map2 is the power map. The 2016 300RR I have seen also had a HRC setting which adds even more spark advance to map2. M11 2017-2018 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED Same as L11 except for changes to the homologated map (street legal). Probably due to the change in rear sprocket from 36 to 41 teeth. M62 2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 2ED Same as M11 but has more fuel in the TPS map from 50% and up. M71 2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 4ED Map 1 is the same as M62 Map 2 has the same fuel as Map 1 but a little higher spark advance to get more power from the engine. My PTB had a setting in the HRC program which made Map 1 softer increasing the difference between the maps. P01 2020-2022 RTL300R Uses the same settings as the P71. P61 2020-2022 Montesa 301RR ED/2ED This software has a strange mix between the M62 software and the P71 software. I have not tested it so not sure if it makes any difference. P71 2020-2022 Montesa 301RR 3ED/4ED Interestingly the 301RR software is much more similar to the H01 software than the M71 form the 300RR. I am wondering if HRC made the settings for the 301RR but Montesa in Spain did the 300RR? Map 1 is the power map with a quite aggressive transient spark map which adds quite a lot of advance. Map 2 is the softer map with less fuel, lower spark advance and lower transient spark map as well, compared to Map 1. Edited March 24, 2022 by ludde More info added 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsawyer Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) Thanks. If you can post more as it's uncovered, please do. Edited March 16, 2021 by sportsawyer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantic303 Posted March 19, 2021 Report Share Posted March 19, 2021 Great to read this info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludde Posted April 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 (edited) Added some more info on the different softwares to the original post. Edited April 9, 2021 by ludde 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lkip Posted April 30, 2021 Report Share Posted April 30, 2021 Hi, I'm doing a similar job on Montesa ECUs. I built the harnesses to add a power supply to the diagnosis plug and I can read the 32kB bin file. Using TunerPro I can interpret the bin file and obtain results much similar to yours. May I ask what software did you use to connect to the ECU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludde Posted June 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 On 4/30/2021 at 10:50 AM, Lkip said: Hi, I'm doing a similar job on Montesa ECUs. I built the harnesses to add a power supply to the diagnosis plug and I can read the 32kB bin file. Using TunerPro I can interpret the bin file and obtain results much similar to yours. May I ask what software did you use to connect to the ECU? Sorry, I missed that you replied. I am using HondaECU by MCU Innovations. It has worked well for me. I will do some testing this weekend to see if can confirm more stuff but it is difficult since it is subjective what I can feel the changes do. I would have loved to be able to a proper Dyno test with external sensor to confirm the maps. Have you built your own xdf file or did you buy it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waxedwaves Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 So how do I know if my bike has a two stage throttle body.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lkip Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 On 6/10/2021 at 8:03 PM, ludde said: Sorry, I missed that you replied. I am using HondaECU by MCU Innovations. It has worked well for me. I will do some testing this weekend to see if can confirm more stuff but it is difficult since it is subjective what I can feel the changes do. I would have loved to be able to a proper Dyno test with external sensor to confirm the maps. Have you built your own xdf file or did you buy it? I tried several times with MCU Innovations free software but wasn't able to make it work. I read the ECU using HondaFlasher and bought the xdf file. I tried to write the ECU but that didn't work, at first the writing wasn't successful, and the bin file on the ECU didnt change, the second time ECU just bricked and doesn't respond anymore. Did you manage to write back ECUs too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludde Posted June 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 On 6/13/2021 at 12:19 PM, Lkip said: I tried several times with MCU Innovations free software but wasn't able to make it work. I read the ECU using HondaFlasher and bought the xdf file. I tried to write the ECU but that didn't work, at first the writing wasn't successful, and the bin file on the ECU didnt change, the second time ECU just bricked and doesn't respond anymore. Did you manage to write back ECUs too? MCU Innovations free software worked for me, but only for reading bins. I bought a flash license to be able to write to the ECU. After that I have written to ECUs several times. I have bricked two ECUs because of stupid mistakes from my side. I have tried to get them to work again but no luck so far. Which ECUs have you read? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludde Posted June 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 On 6/11/2021 at 11:02 AM, waxedwaves said: So how do I know if my bike has a two stage throttle body.... That is a tricky question. It looks like your throttle body is a Japanese one from 2007. I think those were 2 map bodies. Was your bike delivered with that throttle body? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lkip Posted June 20, 2021 Report Share Posted June 20, 2021 On 6/18/2021 at 9:59 PM, ludde said: MCU Innovations free software worked for me, but only for reading bins. I bought a flash license to be able to write to the ECU. After that I have written to ECUs several times. I have bricked two ECUs because of stupid mistakes from my side. I have tried to get them to work again but no luck so far. Which ECUs have you read? Only a 2ED model from a 300cc bike. I read the code but when I tried to write it back it didn't work. The progress bar wasn't moving and eventually I stopped the program ending up with a bricked ECU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaStregaCustomBike Posted December 2, 2021 Report Share Posted December 2, 2021 Hi, I bought a used Montesa 4RT 300RR built in 2019. The ECU 16400-NN4-J11 (9606-100210) with the software NN4DF06 is installed. Switching between Map1 and Map2 does not work. It only runs on Map1, it seems to me that this ECU only has one mapping. My question: 1. can this be the right ECU for the 300RR? 2. can this ECU even have 2 programs? 3. can this ECU be programmed with a programming device? It would be nice if someone could help me here. Thank you greetings Bernd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsawyer Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 On 12/2/2021 at 12:17 AM, LaStregaCustomBike said: Hi, I bought a used Montesa 4RT 300RR built in 2019. The ECU 16400-NN4-J11 (9606-100210) with the software NN4DF06 is installed. Switching between Map1 and Map2 does not work. It only runs on Map1, it seems to me that this ECU only has one mapping. My question: 1. can this be the right ECU for the 300RR? 2. can this ECU even have 2 programs? 3. can this ECU be programmed with a programming device? ... The 16400-NN4-J11 is for a 2014 4RT260. I believe the 2018/2019 300RR TB/ECU for the 4ED racing version (2-map) is P.N. 16400-NN4-M71. The 16400-NN4-J11 is a single-map TB/ECU and is not programmable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludde Posted March 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2022 Added some more info and updated some of the pictures. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MITO Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 Hi guys, thank you for great topic - nice reading. I have got a question...is it possible to diagnose/measure TPS inside the ECU? I am struggling with COTA 260. At full throttle the engine is stuck and popping, when you close a throttle just a bit, the engine get full RPM. Therefore I would like check if TPS is working correctly. The bike was running very long time with mechanical restricted throttle inside the handle (by this screw into the bar). When the screw was removed, trouble become... Any idea what should be wrong there? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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