Montesa 4rt ECU software info

[ponch]

Hello there I just bought the mcu innovations not knowing there is no support for it.   I am trying to read a 2017 crf450 38770-MKE-A04,  can anyone help me out?

[45grum]

Hi Ludde

I have a $rt 260 motor with a 300 conversion, the throttle body and ECU is marked 16400-NLC-003, I was told it was a 2 map unit and has the Honda map switch fitted, any idea what I have?

Cheers Graham

[Tom23]

On 3/15/2021 at 11:35 AM, ludde said:

I haven't written anything here in years but now I have information that I think some will be interested in. This will be quite technical so bear with me. I am writing this from the standpoint that you know how the use the HRC software to change the mapping in the ECU. More info to come. 

Background
Almost a year ago now I came across some software developed to flash the ECU of different Honda motorcycles. Being an engineer I started to wonder if it would be possible to use on the 4rt. I have always been annoyed that the HRC software only lets you modify fuel and spark advance in relation to some maps that are unknown. After some research I found that the flash software monitors if the ignition (12V) is on to know if the ECU is alive or not. Well, the 4rt does not have a battery and the red 4P connector in the harness which you use to communicate with the ECU does not have any 12V or ground wires. So an adapter harness needed to be created. The connectors are Sumitomo HM090 series. I used the 12V and ground from the black 2P connectors the you use to power the ECU and then made a harness with a 4P connector which looks like this.

It worked! I was able to read a 32kB bin file from the ECU. Having had 4rts since they were launched I had a couple of throttle bodies laying around. So a total of 5 bins were read. Now the big job of trying to interpret the hex code started. I won't bore you with all the details so here is what has been found out so far.

Information

ECUs read (as of now) 16400-NN4-XXX
G11, H01, J11, L11, L72, M11, M62, M71, P01, P71
 

There are 2 main softwares used since 2009 I think, NN4D101 and NN4G202. Non of the software send any diagnostic information via the K-line sadly enough. 
NN4D101: Switchable between MAP1 and MAP2 on the handlebar. (3ED/4ED)
HRC programmable
1 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis.
2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. 
NN4G202: Street legal version (ED/2ED)
NOT HRC programmable
2 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis.
2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. 

Fuel 
2 maps, one based on RPM and IAP (inlet air pressure), one based on RPM and TPS (throttle position sensor). No clue yet to what the numbers mean other than higher number is more fuel. 
How they work in relation to each other I am not sure of right now. WIP
I think there is also some kind of acceleration enrichment. WIP

Spark advance

1 map, based on RPM and TPS. The numbers are still a bit of a guess but they seems to be about right. 
There is also a transient spark advance which adds or subtracts from the main map. This is active when you snap the throttle and the engine is not able to keep up with what you are demanding. 

Other functions

RPM Limiter, looks like 3 different limiters. Only one has been confirmed. 

 

The different softwares
G11
2009-2012 Montesa ED/2ED 
This is the oldest software I have right now. 
Is very similar to H01 but has less fuel since the Montesa still was 250cc.

H01
2010 HRC RTL260F
This software has two very different maps. Map 1 is you standard map providing as much power as possible. 
Map 2 is a very soft map with lowered spark advance and a low transient spark as well. This takes away all the punch the engine has but is great in slippery conditions.
You have to rev the engine if you need some power but the traction is great.

J11
2014 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED 
Very similar to the H01 softwares Map 1 with small changes to fuel and ignition. Probably due the difference in exhaust muffler between the Honda RTL and the Montesa.

L11
2016 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED
For 2016 a new fuel pump was fitted which changed the fuel and ignition maps a lot. 

L72
2016 Montesa 300RR 4ED
The 2016 300RR has a 2 ring piston compared to the later 300RR which has a three ring piston (the same as the 260 but bigger).
Therefore this software has a unique settings which is different to both L11 and M71.
Map1 has lower spark advance on small throttle openings making it softer than map2.
Map2 is the power map.
The 2016 300RR I have seen also had a HRC setting which adds even more spark advance to map2.

M11
2017-2018 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED
Same as L11 except for changes to the homologated map (street legal). Probably due to the change in rear sprocket from 36 to 41 teeth.

M62
2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 2ED
Same as M11 but has more fuel in the TPS map from 50% and up.

M71
2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 4ED
Map 1 is the same as M62 
Map 2 has the same fuel as Map 1 but a little higher spark advance to get more power from the engine.
My PTB had a setting in the HRC program which made Map 1 softer increasing the difference between the maps.

P01
2020-2022 RTL300R
Uses the same settings as the P71. 

P61
2020-2022 Montesa 301RR ED/2ED
This software has a strange mix between the M62 software and the P71 software. I have not tested it so not sure if it makes any difference.

P71
2020-2022 Montesa 301RR 3ED/4ED
Interestingly the 301RR software is much more similar to the H01 software than the M71 form the 300RR. I am wondering if HRC made the settings for the 301RR but Montesa in Spain did the 300RR?
Map 1 is the power map with a quite aggressive transient spark map which adds quite a lot of advance.
Map 2 is the softer map with less fuel, lower spark advance and lower transient spark map as well, compared to Map 1.

On 3/15/2021 at 11:35 AM, ludde said:

I haven't written anything here in years but now I have information that I think some will be interested in. This will be quite technical so bear with me. I am writing this from the standpoint that you know how the use the HRC software to change the mapping in the ECU. More info to come. 

Background
Almost a year ago now I came across some software developed to flash the ECU of different Honda motorcycles. Being an engineer I started to wonder if it would be possible to use on the 4rt. I have always been annoyed that the HRC software only lets you modify fuel and spark advance in relation to some maps that are unknown. After some research I found that the flash software monitors if the ignition (12V) is on to know if the ECU is alive or not. Well, the 4rt does not have a battery and the red 4P connector in the harness which you use to communicate with the ECU does not have any 12V or ground wires. So an adapter harness needed to be created. The connectors are Sumitomo HM090 series. I used the 12V and ground from the black 2P connectors the you use to power the ECU and then made a harness with a 4P connector which looks like this.

It worked! I was able to read a 32kB bin file from the ECU. Having had 4rts since they were launched I had a couple of throttle bodies laying around. So a total of 5 bins were read. Now the big job of trying to interpret the hex code started. I won't bore you with all the details so here is what has been found out so far.

Information

ECUs read (as of now) 16400-NN4-XXX
G11, H01, J11, L11, L72, M11, M62, M71, P01, P71
 

There are 2 main softwares used since 2009 I think, NN4D101 and NN4G202. Non of the software send any diagnostic information via the K-line sadly enough. 
NN4D101: Switchable between MAP1 and MAP2 on the handlebar. (3ED/4ED)
HRC programmable
1 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis.
2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. 
NN4G202: Street legal version (ED/2ED)
NOT HRC programmable
2 set of RPM, IAP and TPS axis.
2 sets of maps for Fuel and Spark advance. 

Fuel 
2 maps, one based on RPM and IAP (inlet air pressure), one based on RPM and TPS (throttle position sensor). No clue yet to what the numbers mean other than higher number is more fuel. 
How they work in relation to each other I am not sure of right now. WIP
I think there is also some kind of acceleration enrichment. WIP

Spark advance

1 map, based on RPM and TPS. The numbers are still a bit of a guess but they seems to be about right. 
There is also a transient spark advance which adds or subtracts from the main map. This is active when you snap the throttle and the engine is not able to keep up with what you are demanding. 

Other functions

RPM Limiter, looks like 3 different limiters. Only one has been confirmed. 

 

The different softwares
G11
2009-2012 Montesa ED/2ED 
This is the oldest software I have right now. 
Is very similar to H01 but has less fuel since the Montesa still was 250cc.

H01
2010 HRC RTL260F
This software has two very different maps. Map 1 is you standard map providing as much power as possible. 
Map 2 is a very soft map with lowered spark advance and a low transient spark as well. This takes away all the punch the engine has but is great in slippery conditions.
You have to rev the engine if you need some power but the traction is great.

J11
2014 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED 
Very similar to the H01 softwares Map 1 with small changes to fuel and ignition. Probably due the difference in exhaust muffler between the Honda RTL and the Montesa.

L11
2016 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED
For 2016 a new fuel pump was fitted which changed the fuel and ignition maps a lot. 

L72
2016 Montesa 300RR 4ED
The 2016 300RR has a 2 ring piston compared to the later 300RR which has a three ring piston (the same as the 260 but bigger).
Therefore this software has a unique settings which is different to both L11 and M71.
Map1 has lower spark advance on small throttle openings making it softer than map2.
Map2 is the power map.
The 2016 300RR I have seen also had a HRC setting which adds even more spark advance to map2.

M11
2017-2018 Montesa 260cc ED/2ED
Same as L11 except for changes to the homologated map (street legal). Probably due to the change in rear sprocket from 36 to 41 teeth.

M62
2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 2ED
Same as M11 but has more fuel in the TPS map from 50% and up.

M71
2017-2018 Montesa 300RR 4ED
Map 1 is the same as M62 
Map 2 has the same fuel as Map 1 but a little higher spark advance to get more power from the engine.
My PTB had a setting in the HRC program which made Map 1 softer increasing the difference between the maps.

P01
2020-2022 RTL300R
Uses the same settings as the P71. 

P61
2020-2022 Montesa 301RR ED/2ED
This software has a strange mix between the M62 software and the P71 software. I have not tested it so not sure if it makes any difference.

P71
2020-2022 Montesa 301RR 3ED/4ED
Interestingly the 301RR software is much more similar to the H01 software than the M71 form the 300RR. I am wondering if HRC made the settings for the 301RR but Montesa in Spain did the 300RR?
Map 1 is the power map with a quite aggressive transient spark map which adds quite a lot of advance.
Map 2 is the softer map with less fuel, lower spark advance and lower transient spark map as well, compared to Map 1.

Hi there,

Can you show us the adapter harness you made to do the trick ? And wire sceme of the harness so we can make it to.

[IBA4rt]

good morning I just bought a 2024 4rt 301. The motorcycle comes limited with a catalyst and lambda probe. Montesa apparently sells a race kit that includes an open exhaust and an ECU with another reference. That kit is very expensive. I have spoken with a mechanic who works on these motorcycles and he tells me that on the 301 the open exhaust is mounted and the intake body limiter (a reducing washer) is removed and with that the motorcycle is delimited. He tells me that the ECU in the race kit is not to limit the bike, it is to get more performance out of it for competition. Do you know what is true in all this? I don't want to get more power, I just want the bike to deliver what it has to deliver.

[konrad]

1 hour ago, IBA4rt said:

good morning I just bought a 2024 4rt 301.

May I ask in what country you reside?  Was the motorcycle in question homologated for road use?  Or is it a competition model?

[lemur]

Did your bike come in a crate straight from the factory or was it unpacked by a reseller?

On my 2014 4RT the race kit parts and the supplementary instructions came included with the homologated bike in the crate.  Lots of extra parts for the dealers to scoop prior to resale.  The bike was initially fitted with all of the restrictors required to make it street legal for a beginner limited license and all of the race parts were in boxes.

An expensive ECU was not included at that time but likely the purchased one can be user programmed beyond the 2 position switch presets, & not something the average rider will ever need.  

[IBA4rt]

Thanks for responding. It was bought in Spain. The motorcycle came in its box with all the instruments placed to pass MOT.
but it no longer includes the open exhaust. Montesa now sells you a separate competition kit consisting of an open exhaust and ECU.
The option they give me is to buy only the open exhaust without lambda or catalyst.
But my question is if the motorcycle will be fine or I also need a control unit.
The current Montesa models already come like this, limited by the Euro 5 homologation.

 

 

---

Sugerencias

 

[konrad]

I don't know the answer, but will offer an educated guess.

It's likely the competition exhaust system will require the competition ECU to work correctly.

However, one thing you can try is simply unplugging the oxygen (lambda) sensor from your current system.  

If the ECU does not immediately throw an error code, it's possible the engine will just run in "open loop" mode. This may give better performance, but it may also may run very rich and consume excessive fuel.

The danger in running very rich is that it can wash lubricating oil off the cylinder wall.

[lemur]

When I installed the race kit on mine and removed all the street stuff the only thing I had to alter was the idle screw after letting it come up to operating temperature.  It came with the catalytic header plus the straight header plus heat shields for both, ECU seemed to know how to deal with either way or with restrictors in or removed.  PGM-Fi works brilliantly, only way I could make one run rich was if the air filter was plugged.

[IBA4rt]

1 hour ago, lemur said:

Cuando instalé el kit de carreras en el mío y quité todo el material de calle, lo único que tuve que modificar fue el tornillo de ralentí después de dejar que alcanzara la temperatura de funcionamiento. Venía con el colector catalítico más el colector recto más los protectores térmicos para ambos, la ECU parecía saber cómo manejarlo de cualquier manera o con los limitadores puestos o quitados. PGM-Fi funciona de maravilla, la única forma en que pude hacer que funcionara con una mezcla rica fue si el filtro de aire estaba 

That is exactly what they have told me, that if I place the exhaust open and remove the oxygen sensor and the reducing washer from the intake body, the control unit will understand those parameters and will work without limits. The race ecu is to gain more extra power. 
What model of mountain do you have? 301?

[konrad]

On 9/19/2024 at 5:10 PM, IBA4rt said:

What model of mountain do you have? 301?

This one was directed at you, lemur.  "montesa" translated to "mountain" in English.

@IBA4rt. lemur had a 2014 260. It would not have had an oxygen sensor.

[lemur]

Owned 5 4RT models from 2005 to 2017, 250, 260 and 300RR, owned 3 at the same time and swapped parts between each to trouble-shoot.  Model makes almost no difference because the 4RT didn't change much to the point where most parts from one will fit right onto the next and work just dandy.  

I have the header pipe with the Cat converter and the O2 sensor from my 2014 260 4RT sitting in my spare parts box.  That was my only 4RT that came in the crate straight from Spain unopened.

[konrad]

23 minutes ago, lemur said:

I have the header pipe with the Cat converter and the O2 sensor from my 2014 260 4RT sitting in my spare parts box.  That was my only 4RT that came in the crate straight from Spain unopened.

I stand corrected.  Should have kept out of it.

[IBA4rt]

Por si le sirve a alguien. Mi montesa 301 2024, tras montar el escape abierto va mal, huele muchísimo a gasolina y el ralenti es inestable y termina parándose. 

Esta moto requiere la centralita race P71.

La P61 no funciona sin sonda lambda y catalizador.

[konrad]

Translation: In case it helps anyone. My Montesa 301 2024, after installing the open exhaust, runs badly, it smells a lot of gasoline and the idle is unstable and ends up stopping. This bike requires the P71 race control unit. The P61 does not work without a lambda probe and catalytic converter.