Petrol (UK)

[rr62]

Might have been covered elsewhere but just in case. I read a piece in The Times today about standard petrol in the UK getting watered down (obviously not with water…) from September this year. What the article said was that cars over 10 years old might suffer (sorry have binned the paper so ‘suffer’ will have to do for now!!) and you’ll have to use premium petrol.

I’ve always used cooking petrol in both my old (seventies) twin shocks and modern bikes. Is it OK just to switch to the higher grade petrol? Any change to twinshock premix required?

Thanks for any advice!

 

 

 

 

[trapezeartist]

Standard fuel is changing from E5 to E10 (ie up to 10% ethanol). Some people have concerns about the effect of ethanol on seals, O rings, etc. Premium grade fuel will still be E5 so use that if you have any doubts. Before I saw the (electric) light, I always used premium in whatever car, kart or motorbike was my toy-of-the-moment. It's only a few pence more, so why take any risk?

[Nishijin]

22 minutes ago, trapezeartist said:

Standard fuel is changing from E5 to E10 (ie up to 10% ethanol). Some people have concerns about the effect of ethanol on seals, O rings, etc. Premium grade fuel will still be E5 so use that if you have any doubts. Before I saw the (electric) light, I always used premium in whatever car, kart or motorbike was my toy-of-the-moment. It's only a few pence more, so why take any risk?

Totally agree. Bin the supermarket fuel, and accept morally ambiguous big names like Shell or Esso. Use their premium fuels. Even Shell Fuelsave is still E5, but for the cost I only put V-Power in my bikes.

 

If I’m caught short on a journey I try to keep it 95 octane and E5…even Texaco premium is E5 I believe. 

[rr62]

Thanks both - I’ll go premium.

[Cee-B]

3 hours ago, Nishijin said:

Totally agree. Bin the supermarket fuel, and accept morally ambiguous big names like Shell or Esso. Use their premium fuels. Even Shell Fuelsave is still E5, but for the cost I only put V-Power in my bikes.

 

If I’m caught short on a journey I try to keep it 95 octane and E5…even Texaco premium is E5 I believe. 

It has got nothing to do with whether it is supermarket fuel or named brand fuel, it is either E5 or E10. 

Premium grade (98 octane) fuel contains no more than 5% ethanol - it doesn't matter where you buy it.

[Nishijin]

31 minutes ago, Cee-B said:

It has got nothing to do with whether it is supermarket fuel or named brand fuel, it is either E5 or E10. 

Premium grade (98 octane) fuel contains no more than 5% ethanol - it doesn't matter where you buy it.

The initial question may be regarding ethanol content, however my remark was more nuanced.

 

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/09/supermarket-petrol-quality-what-you-need-to-know/

 

https://www.fuelcardservices.com/why-is-supermarket-fuel-cheaper-than-branded-petrol/
 

and so on…

 

[ChrisCH]

E10 is OK for most vehicles and the main objection seems to be from people on the internet that give anecdotes rather than evidence.  The issue is clouded by people that have an agenda other than just offering their experiences.  My GSX runs fine on E10 and it runs fine on Sainsburys petrol.  The marketing effort to get you to waste money on fuel is impressive and largely dishonest.

My TRS runs better on Shell V Power, but it is a "performance" engine, not a road tuned vehicle.  Or maybe it is my imagination?  Whatever.  Since it only burns a few litres a year and it feels to me that it is running better I will continue to buy a 5L can of V Power now and then.   The car, van and road bikes get filled up at the supermarket.  Our last van (Transit) did 200,000 miles on supermarket diesel and never missed a beat.

What I have found out for sure is if you do enough research (on E10 and fuel generally) and read enough on the internet you can find two diametrically opposing points of view expressed with equal conviction and convincing supporting evidence.

[pjw123]

Ethanol easily removed from petrol.  Check it out on You Tube

[kaarelj]

Two things happen with ethanol added fuels.

Ethanol is evaporating well under warm circumstances, lowering the octane value in fuel. - not a big deal and impact is not that high

And ethanol is good in binding water from air and then it condensates in your bike fuel system. I had few carb engines lying around and made a "scientific test" 😆 within two month time one ride-on lawn mower engine build up nice amount of residue and rust in its carb. And I was riding it after every two weeks. Yup, carbs and fuel systems are different, but still. And I've seen the same pictures and posts from workshops after they introduced E10 fuels around here. And ethanol does not do good for some carbs membranes

It is not an issue on your daily, but I wouldn't put any of the E10 fuels to bike which could only be used only weekends or even less. Specially if you have more than one bike waiting for their turn in garage.

Because I don't ride that much at once and do it around my backyard with kids, then using Aspen Alkylate. And almost every performance engine owner (quads etc) are riding on Aspen+ which is very clean RON98 fuel. Not a commercial break, just only available brand around here.

--And I am not starting on the politics, of how it is reasonable to harvest some crops, mash them, distillate them and then add it to fuel and say it is somehow more green now. By that lowering calorific value of the fuel, hence needing more fuel now.🤔

[Cee-B]

3 hours ago, kaarelj said:

Two things happen with ethanol added fuels.

 

Yes, those 2 things you mention happen, but there is also a little more to it than that.

As well as (and sometimes as a consequence of) the points you mentioned, the following also applies (some points repeat aspects of others):

Ethanol corrodes plastic and rubber – Ethanol is a strong, aggressive solvent and will cause problems with rubber hoses, o-rings, seals, and gaskets. These problems are worse during extended storage when significant deterioration could take place. Hoses may delaminate, o-rings soften and break down, and fuel system components made from certain types of plastics could either soften or become hard and brittle, eventually failing. Fuel system components made from brass, copper, and aluminium may oxidize. The dissolved plastics and resins now in the fuel could block fuel filters or cause gummy deposits in the system.

This is not generally a problem for newer vehicles as they are manufactured to be E10 compatible. Use of E5 has certainly caused deterioration of some parts on my old BSA. A real problem for older (and some not-so-old) bikes is that it attacks plastic/fibreglass fuel tanks and causes them to swell. The tank on my Montesa 315 is now very difficult to fit after using E5 fuel.

 Deposits are likely to build up – Ethanol when mixed with water readily forms Gums in the fuel system much quicker than fuel without Ethanol. These Gums coat fuel system components including filters, carburettors, injectors, throttle plates and will then form varnish and carbon deposits in the intake, on valves, and in the combustion chamber.

Corrosion of internal engine components – Water contamination may cause fuel system corrosion and severe deterioration.

Contaminants in fuel system – water, degraded rubber, plastic, fibreglass and rust.

It encourages microbial growth in fuel. Ethanol being organic and hygroscopic allows the growth of fungus.

Short shelf life – as short as 90 days

Lower fuel mileage – Ethanol contains less chemical energy than petrol does, and this means less mileage per tank. 3-5% drops in mileage are expected, not a massive consideration on a trials bike!

Edit: I'm not sure why some of this has come up in different colour - there is no significance

Edited August 24, 2021 by Cee-B
comment on type colour

[rr62]

I’m now wedded to upgraded fuel for both my new and old bikes. Thanks for the builds folks. There’s also plenty of this in bona fide automotive press which I also trust. Thanks again.

[turbofurball]

Just to chip in, I use forecourt 98 octane E5 fuel because I don't have anything with a fibreglass tank.  I've experienced gumming in the carbs of bikes used occasionally with 95/E10, and a noticeable drop in performance when it gets old, the E5 seems to be ok.

It's one of the reasons I decided to get a cheap new trail bike than looking for nice old one - designed for E10 throughout.

[pschrauber]

On 8/23/2021 at 9:39 AM, ChrisCH said:

E10 is OK for most vehicles and the main objection seems to be from people on the internet that give anecdotes rather than evidence.  The issue is clouded by people that have an agenda other than just offering their experiences.  My GSX runs fine on E10 and it runs fine on Sainsburys petrol.  The marketing effort to get you to waste money on fuel is impressive and largely dishonest.

My TRS runs better on Shell V Power, but it is a "performance" engine, not a road tuned vehicle.  Or maybe it is my imagination?  Whatever.  Since it only burns a few litres a year and it feels to me that it is running better I will continue to buy a 5L can of V Power now and then.   The car, van and road bikes get filled up at the supermarket.  Our last van (Transit) did 200,000 miles on supermarket diesel and never missed a beat.

What I have found out for sure is if you do enough research (on E10 and fuel generally) and read enough on the internet you can find two diametrically opposing points of view expressed with equal conviction and convincing supporting evidence.

I can tell by evidence that E10 is not so good storeable anymore, before with ethanol free gas or fuel with "just" 5% ethanol I could store fuel in containers from 5L onwards over the winter, now if heavy frost is involved (we get -20 deg) it dissolves, change smell, and creating and gelantinous deposit  even with chemicals for longer storage.

 

[ChrisCH]

1 hour ago, pschrauber said:

I can tell by evidence that E10 is not so good storeable anymore, before with ethanol free gas or fuel with "just" 5% ethanol I could store fuel in containers from 5L onwards over the winter, now if heavy frost is involved (we get -20 deg) it dissolves, change smell, and creating and gelantinous deposit  even with chemicals for longer storage.

 

Everything I have read suggests that the Ethanol absorbs water and that is the main problem.  I think your experience shows this to be true.  Diesel suffers microbial growth if there is too much bio content.

My road bike is stored under cover and in a warehouse where it does not freeze.  I have no issues with the fuel in it.  If you are storing in sub-zero conditions i think it might be wise to empty the tank or put a small amount of Aspen in just for the winter.  (I once left a VFR for a long time and it gelled up - pre Ethanol fuel at the time)

I would appreciate any feedback on the effect of the two stroke oil in the cold. (In E10)

Edited August 25, 2021 by ChrisCH
add info

[turbofurball]

Actually, thinking about it I have some Stihl premix kicking around, and that doesn't go off.  It's 50:1 mix, maybe I could try that in the old bikes when they're going to be laid up for the winter (and if they don't like it much I can drain it and use it in the chainsaw, lol)