Pre 65 Future & Pre 65 Rules

[ttspud]

@B40rt.  I have added some 2 stroke classes for you; Sprung, Rigid, Sidecar and Clubman.  It is only an example, the expectation was that clubs would stay with whatever classes they have now, but if you think clubs should use the same classes if they can, then maybe that is right.  For now, the emphasis was on sub-class, but perhaps a wider discussion is needed.

[ttspud]

@TrialRFun.  Yes, thanks!

[greevesrob]

17 hours ago, ttspud said:

@Greevesrob.  You can put a tube in a tubeless tyre if need be which is easy to do, they often are thicker and heavier, but no problem.  Yes, there is a clear distinction between modified and original bikes, two different approaches completely.

You can if you want it to keep coming off the rim ask me how I know. The point I was starting to make is that the totality original bike your rules are talking of don't exist or are in collections and don't get ridden.

Take my bike for example 1963 Greeves with your class rules frame, engine, carb ok. Exhaust is alloy so not allowed, Norton forks not leading link so not allowed and wheels are replica cub hubs with tubeless rear as got sick of messing with the bhc wheels that were fitted but they had alloy rims and were not original anyway.

So with your rules I might as well buy a Drayton frame kit and no one would get to see an actual pre65 bike as it doesn't fit in either category.

[fullchoke]

Here is a slightly different perspective.... This is my 1st post outside of the Introduction thread. 

I have never been a Observed Trials rider. I have never had a bike built as a Trials bike. I now have acquired a 1957 AJS 18CS that is set up for Trials. It has probably been that way since 1964.

I enjoy looking at vintage bikes in a static display, watching, and hearing them perform would be even better. As a spectator, I would be interested in the bike.... not so much the rider. If I'm watching a vintage pre-65 event I would expect to be seeing pre-65 bikes, not a modern bike made to look pre-65. I would not expect the bike to be factory original, but I would expect the major parts to be made before 1965.

When I 1st began riding off road, we would strip all the street parts and pieces off to reduce weight, and to improve performance 1st, and prevent breakage 2nd. Then we would customize, with bars, tires, maybe seat, etc. As long as the customized changes were pre-65 in a pre-65 class, I see no problem, in fact as a spectator I would expect it, as long as it maintained the pre-65 look and function.

As far as cheating goes....I find it difficult to understand. How good can you feel with your performance, when you know you cheated? At the same time nobody should accuse someone else of cheating if they are following the rules.

My 2 cents,

Thanks

[ttspud]

@GreevesRob.  With the tyres, there is a thread a few down discussing exactly that; using an innertube with a Tubeless tyre.  Maybe have a look at that for some pointers and options.  The point is to try to keep the bikes original if possible, and everyone is then in the same boat. 

Some original bikes as described do get ridden in the trials that I ride in, including mine and friends of mine also, and they are hugely appreciated (the post just above makes that exact point and it is very true, as in it is nice to see them in a museum but much nicer to hear them and see them out there being ridden) by spectator and rider alike.  Many have dropped out over the decades of course but this may help to keep those bikes in and maybe bring some originals back in as well. 

Of course, many modified bikes today have everything modified, if you still have the original frame, engine, ignition, caburettor, clutch and so on, then you could revert to original or just ride as you are, you would be no different than you are now, in that you would just ride the same events in the same way against the same competition as before.  I wasn't really considering that many people would revert bikes back to original spec, but it is possible that that may happen for bikes such as yours.  Having a 'Specials' sub-class for bikes which would otherwise be eligible as an Original but have mixed make/model components, is maybe something to consider?

[ttspud]

@FullChoke.  Fantastic bike, the 500cc version of mine, and in exactly the same original pre65 spec as mine is, unchanged, it would be very nice to see it ridden in events as an Original bike.  Mine is ridden every year in competitive events, albeit in the easier routes but other better riders do attempt some of the harder routes on original bikes. Unfortunately, they are up against ultra modified bikes and cannot expect to win, but if they knew who was also on an original bike, at least they would know who they were really competing against. 

You are absolutely right, people look at the bike and not the rider.  My bike sounds great, it is still a long stroke rather than the harsher sound of the short stroke modifieds.  It is an original bike, and people enjoy seeing it every year, and each year it gets rarer.  It has a great history, I would like to see that continue alongside the few that are left, and hope to see others return if something like these rules can be put into practice.  It is not much to do really. 

Yes, about the 'cheating', it crept in, little by little, at the start it was 'hidden' but everyone knew it was happening yet it was not stopped.  Now it is not hidden largely because it has gone so far and there are so few original bikes left that if the rules as they were were enforced then there would be no riders left at some events.  There is now no fear at all in having broken the rules (ACU Handbook) because the rules have been long ignored.  We cannot go back, and no-one expects that.  But something like these rules would protect the bikes we have and hopefully bring some more in.  Great post though, very nice to hear that the original bikes are appreciated.

[fullchoke]

I'm in the US, Oregon to be exact. I'm not sure about the rules here, but I think they may be followed closer to preserve the historical nature of the bikes and Trials riding back in the day.

As a spectator, you see a class event like Pre-65, and you take it at face value, I would think that interest could be lost, by both rider and spectator, if the classes are in name only. There needs to be definition. In motorcross the AHRMA doesn't allow some Pre-65 built bikes to be run in the Pre-65 class, they must be run in the Pre-68 class, if they are deemed to modern, even if original. Their handbook is large, you can see it online. I get the impression it is used, but I don't race so I don't know how close it is followed.

[ttspud]

Quote

As a spectator, you see a class event like Pre-65, and you take it at face value, I would think that interest could be lost, by both rider and spectator, if the classes are in name only. There needs to be definition. In motorcross the AHRMA doesn't allow some Pre-65 built bikes to be run in the Pre-65 class, they must be run in the Pre-68 class, if they are deemed to modern, even if original. Their handbook is large, you can see it online. I get the impression it is used, but I don't race so I don't know how close it is followed.

Absolutely right.  Yes, the UK version of Pre60, Pre65 and pre68 motorcross is very very stringent on originality and compliance also.  It is very very popular both with riders and with spectators, probably for that reason, that you know where you stand, spectators like to see original bikes and the bikes do not cost the earth.  It is a shame that pre65 trials got itself into such a mess in the UK by not following or enforcing any kind of compliance or originality.  Hopefully, without upsetting modified riders, that can be rectified somewhat both for riders and for spectators.  I do not know if you have seen some of the original footage of pre65 trials, I could not find the one I was thinking of but this one is quite good!!!  

 

[ttspud]

@Greevesrob, @Old Geezer, @Trialman, @djr.  

There seems to be a wide view, and I think correctly so, that bikes should not have to keep all components to the same make/model as that is exactly how pre65 trials originally was.  Just from the stories here, and from BSAOtter, it is fairly clear that it was very common to mix components from different bikes.  The hope with the rules is to protect the bikes we have and to bring back as many pre65 bikes as possible, and I think changing the rules to include bikes with original components from different make/model bikes as being in the Original sub-class (rather than as Specials or as Modified) is absolutely right and might help to do just that.  So, I have just changed the rules to reflect that, I believe that that is the consensus.

@Greevesrob, that means that your bike, except for the alloy exhaust, as far as I know from what you have said, is Pre65 Original.  Also, if you noticed, there is a Greeves being ridden in the video above...  Anyway, I hope that helps, it seems right to me, it is what was being spoken about by Old Geezer, djr and Trialman, so there it is.  

Edited September 13, 2021 by ttspud

[ttspud]

After remembering this:

1925 Indian At The 2018 Talmag

the rules have been altered to allow non-British bikes at the discretion of the Club.

Edited September 14, 2021 by ttspud

[on it]

2 hours ago, ttspud said:

After remembering this:

1925 Indian At The 2018 Talmag

the rules have been altered to allow non-British bikes at the discretion of the Club.

All very good but !  did the club have to alter the sections /classes and scrutineering ( as your wanting ) or did the club just run the trial as normal  and the rider and said bike  just got on with it ?  But your wanting the same small team  that takes entrys , find sections, do the flags, finds observers , tidy up & do the results & now your wanting them to take on  a nut and bolt scrutineering to check if a bike is all original ?  just so your happy when you ride your 2 trials a year !

[ttspud]

@ on it.  The idea within the rules is not to burden organisers with new routes or new classes.  So, the Talmag, as the example you reference, would not need to change any of its classes or routes to follow the rules.  It would simply request that riders indicate whether they are riding a Modified or an Original when they enter, to 'ideally' have Original bikes checked for compliance on the day, and then to include the sub-class letter (O or M) alongside the rider in the results so that riders can see who they are actually competing against. That's it.  In relation to the Talmag, it is probably between 20 and 50 original bikes out of a total entry of about 200, something like that, the rest obviously Modified.  It may be that a first step would be just to let riders self-certify on entry to see how many bikes actually are claiming to be original as well as exploring how difficult it will be to check them.  Others, in the days where scrutineering was normal, would know more about how many people try to 'hide' modifications but since no-one is going to exclude a modified bike anyway, I see very little point in riders of modified bikes trying to claim that they are original.  I am happy anyway, the idea of the rules is to help the sport retain or increase the original pre65 entry, and to increase existing rider's enjoyment by allowing them to see who is on a similar original bike as well as increasing the enjoyment for spectators.

[b40rt]

4 hours ago, on it said:

All very good but !  did the club have to alter the sections /classes and scrutineering ( as your wanting ) or did the club just run the trial as normal  and the rider and said bike  just got on with it ?  But your wanting the same small team  that takes entrys , find sections, do the flags, finds observers , tidy up & do the results & now your wanting them to take on  a nut and bolt scrutineering to check if a bike is all original ?  just so your happy when you ride your 2 trials a year !

Think your being a bit unfair, the way I'm reading this and the original post from 2017, is ttspud will be scrutininneering  the bikes ?

[ttspud]

@TrialsRFun.  Yes, you may well be right with the classes.  The Talmag is 4 stroke only (and very much set out for the big old bikes with wide sections full of long climbs and sandy conditions which drains well and is soft to land on!), but for other events that allow both 2-stroke and 4-stroke, yes, I see your point.  Do you think that events should stick to the same classes, as in try to make them standard?  Girder forks in the same class as rigids?  Also, maybe a class for sidecars if the course is 'pre65' enough, ie wide enough.  It is very difficult for organisers, either have too many classes and too few riders in a class, or too few classes and some riders feel that it is unfair to their machinery.  

One of the differences that I see in events is that some events allow riders to enter any route for any class, as your suggestion does.  Whereas other events link one specific route to each class.  In the case of the Talmag, they use the addition of a Clubman class as a catch-all for older riders or casual riders that rider rarely who will all want to ride the easy route regardless of machinery on a non-competitive basis.  Interestingly, since the ultra modifieds have gone so far ahead and so many originals have been pushed to the easy route, the easy route has effectively now become a competitive route but is not reported as such, which is a shame, it is only in the last couple of years that publications such as the TMX have actually included the Clubman class results at all.  Going forward, hopefully the inclusion of sub-class will encourage riders to go back to the standard route because they can then see who they are actually riding against and enjoy the competition once again.

Yes, the Talmag always had 2 courses which should be enough, but due to lobbying by the latest ultra-modifieds finding the courses too easy, for the first time it ran 3 courses in 2020 and some of the originals, for the first time ever including the 2018 winner, decided that things were getting a bit silly and would no longer try to compete with the 'ultras' which are so far advanced against an original it was just making a mockery of it, which is a shame and something which these rules should address as well as it can be done.  I do not know what might happen the next time the Talmag runs, possibly not next year though I don't know, but 2 courses, to me, are enough, full stop.  Ultra modifieds will all get zero, and so be it, they will  have to win or lose on the timed section and just enjoy the day as everyone else.  If the Talmag, and any other event, does one day mark down Original/Modified in the entry and results, then at least all riders can see who they are really up against, which would be great.  I have not discussed it with them recently though, they have so much pressure on them and do so much work, I hate to put any more stress on them especially during times such as this.  It is, to me, the best trial of the year bar none, and long may it continue that way.  I think the sub-class would only improve it, but that is their decision whenever they feel it is appropriate.  

Edited September 15, 2021 by ttspud

[metisse]

My view on all classic trials is have an age related handicap.   In years old... up to 50 x 1.5, 50-60 years old 0, and over 60 - 1.5 .

so on a final score of 10 marks lost over the trial 

up to 40 would have their score increased  to 15

50 to 60 remains at 10

over 60 comes down to 6,5.

It wouldn t take long to get the hang of it.... thoughts....