200 vs 300: the dilemma

[JonM]

First, some back story- are you sitting comfortably?

Nov '20 I try my first trials bike, a 1971 Bultaco Sherpa 250. It feels really natural, tractable and I decide to get my own bike.

Lockdown happens (again) so I don't really start riding until April, but I get a 2001 Gasgas TXT. Love it, but it's tired & needs TLC, so I go newer.

Next up is a '13 Sherco ST300. It has a few mechanical niggles but when it works, it's good. I ride through the summer and autumn of this year.

But now it's winter and OMG this is a different game. I'm struggling so much I'm failing to even complete easy sections. The 300 made carrying the front wheel over rocks or popping off small ledges easy, but now with my skill level that same character means wheel spin & no confidence.

I'm honestly thinking of getting a Beta Evo 200; it'll be a better bike for me in the muddy south east on easy & inter sections, BUT, will I regret in the summer when the plentiful power of the 300 was an asset in the dry?

[nhuskys]

You might want to consider a Beta 250 too. It's probably the most tame of the 250's. I presently ride a Beta 200 Factory and like it very much. I started riding trials on a 125 4 years ago, with many years of enduro experience.  I ride in Upstate NY and the sections look just like Southeast England.... muddy hills and off cambers, with a bit of streams with muddy banks. The 200 is a good upgrade from my previous 125's. It still takes a little more throttle and technique than a bigger bike, but less than the 125. When I trade in a couple of years, I think I'll go to a Beta 250.

[JonM]

5 hours ago, nhuskys said:

You might want to consider a Beta 250 too. It's probably the most tame of the 250's. I presently ride a Beta 200 Factory and like it very much. I started riding trials on a 125 4 years ago, with many years of enduro experience.  I ride in Upstate NY and the sections look just like Southeast England.... muddy hills and off cambers, with a bit of streams with muddy banks. The 200 is a good upgrade from my previous 125's. It still takes a little more throttle and technique than a bigger bike, but less than the 125. When I trade in a couple of years, I think I'll go to a Beta 250.

Thanks for the input.

 

Everything I've read about the 200 (from clubmen) is positive and based what conditions are like in the UK, plus the typically tight nature of sections, I thought it might be a winner.

 

I did suspect somebody would suggest the 250 as middle ground... 

[ChrisCH]

What tyre pressure are you running?  My 280 is powerful enough to break the traction easily in wet conditions.  I am lazy and often do not bother to check or adjust the pressure but the difference between (for example) 3psi and 7psi is huge.  The missus has a Beta 250 and an IRC rear and it copes well with the poor surfaces.  My Michelin loses pressure and so I tend to pump it up a little too much to compensate and (as I am lazy) often run a bit too high.

I am not sure that such drastic measures as a change of bike should be needed?

[JonM]

45 minutes ago, ChrisCH said:

What tyre pressure are you running?  My 280 is powerful enough to break the traction easily in wet conditions.  I am lazy and often do not bother to check or adjust the pressure but the difference between (for example) 3psi and 7psi is huge.  The missus has a Beta 250 and an IRC rear and it copes well with the poor surfaces.  My Michelin loses pressure and so I tend to pump it up a little too much to compensate and (as I am lazy) often run a bit too high.

I am not sure that such drastic measures as a change of bike should be needed?

On Sunday I was 7psi front, 4.5psi rear. The tyres were old, however, and until then I'd never looked at the date codes. Mid 2012 front and early 2013 rear.

I'll be the first to say that I'm very inexperienced and trials is just a hobby. I'm a keen sportsman in other pursuits and haven't put enough seat time in- I get by more on my experience of MTB racing, cyclo trials and motocross.

I've got new Michelins to go on now but I was absolutely awful. God awful. So bad.

I'm willing to take drastic measures as my performance on Sunday is enough to make me a summer only rider.

[compactpete]

Go and get a ride on a Vertigo 200.

[JonM]

28 minutes ago, compactpete said:

Go and get a ride on a Vertigo 200.

Alas my budget doesn't extend to a bike that new, but I'm really interested to hear your thoughts.

The Vertigo has FI and I guess you're a fan of the bike and its displacement?

 

[faussy]

A 9 year old tyre will be as hard as the rocks. A new tyre run at 4 or below in the mud will make a lot of difference. The fact that you've had a 300 before (granted it wasn't he freshest) and didnt find it too powerful in the dry makes me think you may be disappointed with a 200. I always urge less experienced riders away from 300s because they get away from them, but i wouldn't just because you are struggling to find grip in the winter. I vote 250.

7 in the front is also high. especially on worn tyres. Maybe you're trying your best to avoid punctures, but in mud going, max 5.5 in front, max 3.5-4 in the rear. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by faussy

[JonM]

14 minutes ago, faussy said:

A 9 year old tyre will be as hard as the rocks. A new tyre run at 4 or below in the mud will make a lot of difference. The fact that you've had a 300 before (granted it wasn't he freshest) and didnt find it too powerful in the dry makes me think you may be disappointed with a 200. I always urge less experienced riders away from 300s because they get away from them, but i wouldn't just because you are struggling to find grip in the winter. I vote 250.

7 in the front is also high. especially on worn tyres. Maybe you're trying your best to avoid punctures, but in mud going, max 5.5 in front, max 3.5-4 in the rear. 

Really useful advice, thank you.

I'll try new rubber and see if there's an improvement.

[rr62]

Million percent get new tyres. I had some aged ones on one of my bikes and it was totally fine in the dry but an absolute nightmare when I entered the first trial in mud (spinning out and fiving on the easiest muddy banks pretty embarrassing). Changed to new tyres - Michelin at the front and an IRC at the back end and rode another muddy trial. Amazing!

Change the tyres. £200 well spent.

[micm]

On 12/16/2021 at 7:50 AM, JonM said:

Everything I've read about the 200 (from clubmen) is positive and based what conditions are like in the UK, plus the typically tight nature of sections, I thought it might be a winner.

Sorry, but not everyone takes that point of view. I bought a brand new one 2 years ago and was glad to see the back of it after 10 months including hot, cold, wet and dry weather down South UK. Frankly, it was gutless with far too many gears. There are loads of people on TC who say it's a great bike but as there are so very few of these machine about, have they ever actually owned one?  I doubt it.  If they are that great, then why are they still so rare?  I suggest that the claim they are the 'answer' is a trials myth. They aren't They re OK but nothing special. Get the Beta 250, an excellent all round bike. Better still buy a TRRS. 

[JonM]

16 hours ago, micm said:

Sorry, but not everyone takes that point of view. I bought a brand new one 2 years ago and was glad to see the back of it after 10 months including hot, cold, wet and dry weather down South UK. Frankly, it was gutless with far too many gears. There are loads of people on TC who say it's a great bike but as there are so very few of these machine about, have they ever actually owned one?  I doubt it.  If they are that great, then why are they still so rare?  I suggest that the claim they are the 'answer' is a trials myth. They aren't They re OK but nothing special. Get the Beta 250, an excellent all round bike. Better still buy a TRRS. 

Great feedback, thank you.

I've wondered why there are so few but put it down to fashion. I know the local trials coach advocates 300s and his daughter rides a 300, too.

I was close to getting the 200 last week but came to the conclusion that when it's slimy & I'm tired I'd love it, but might miss the instant 'pop' of a 300. Back to the drawing board.

I'm reticent to ask about bike brands, models or recommendations but locally TRS and Montesa seem to be the most popular models, often ridden by riders at a level o aspire to. (Good clubman, but not Expert).

[totty79]

cc is a factor in engine character and performance but it's just one factor it's not like every 200 or 300 is the same, there's a massive difference between brands and also differences between years and sometimes even between intended markets.

"Instant pop" is as much carb/ignition timing/reeds/flywheel/gearing as it is cc. It's also the characteristic that doesn't work with mud.

[Glayne]

For what it's worth, I had an old 02 gasser 250. it was awesome! I bought a newer gasser 280, way too much power and I instantly regretted it!...have learned the power and would not trade back now! That 02 TXT edition was a great machine, but not as fun as a 280 Pro! Play with , or own as many as you can! life seems short!

[ChrisCH]

9 hours ago, Glayne said:

For what it's worth, I had an old 02 gasser 250. it was awesome! I bought a newer gasser 280, way too much power and I instantly regretted it!...have learned the power and would not trade back now! That 02 TXT edition was a great machine, but not as fun as a 280 Pro! Play with , or own as many as you can! life seems short!

I also enjoy the TRS280 and when I ride the wife's Beta 250 it is gutless by comparison.  The extra power makes it so easy to climb because you can climb nearly anything with so little throttle.  In soft muddy conditions you might need the clutch and a higher gear but I find a low tyre pressure is OK.  I am not any where near good enough to "need" the power and still working my way up to obstacles over about 60cm - that is about my limit now.  The 280 is often described as "intermediate" but I find it OK and I am more "Noddy".