mich lin Posted March 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Dman, good reply, it was my buddy Clive than dragged us there not me! He's a bud like Ringo and I don't mind him giving me a hard time, I simply fired right back. You really summed things up well and make it very clear why the NATC/AMA trials riders are the laughing stock of international trials competition. Some of us DO care about that and would like to see that changed. Nothing can be done however without our federation's "AMA/NATC" support, which they refuse to provide! Unless USA trials make a move to comply with international standards and rules, we will remain a backwater, isolated and umimportant part of the world trials community. Hey, who knows, it might even increase bike sales if we jumped in step with the rest of the world! Things can't get any worse than it is right now. Good reply though Dman, At least you were honest about the national federation not caring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 I think I saw this episode on days of our lives or maybe it was Dallas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 lol alan... you're right When nicky went off with julie over Cassie... I cried!!! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted March 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 You guys have an edge there, I don't have TV in my house so I can't talk about soap operas ! If you want to talk about shows, go rent TROY, then maybe you will see what a Champion is supposed to represent to a people! He's the single man who stands or falls that represents a nation, people, army or culture in single face to face combat. He's your best, he's the peak product of a culture. Think of David and Goliath as an example, the winner of that combat represents the whole people and their fate, culture and destiny. The movie Troy shows this principle very well. We need a US champion that will represent us in "the battle of the world trials championship" to prove our culture is strong, not one that runs away from the fight! What are U.S. spectators going to say when their sons ask "daddy, why isn't the American Champion on the podium or the winner of the US world round?" Patrick Smage could be the kind of a champion that could beat the world if he and the other young tigers behind him were given the support of the US federation. Look to the world's best on how to win, the Spanish and British, how their federations support their young tigers! They provide training camps with tip top trainers like James Lampkin and Jordi, what do we do for our best and brightest youngsters? Nothing! They don't even provide for them the proper 125cc class sturcture to compete in so they can advance into world competiton. Our national federation the NATC has done nothing to advance the dreams of our best and brightest young riders, our future champions who are to represent our American trials culture at the TDN and world trials championship. The NATC has been a total failure in this area! The NATC cannot be allowed to produce another generation of champions who simply hide from the rest of the world. You guys may be happy sitting home watching soap operas, that's fine. There is a group of us who would rather stand like men and take on the trials world, not stand around like a bunch of women and watch soap operas or be spectators. Give our younsters, our future champions the tools they need to fight and win against the world's best. Otherwise the NATC will simply have to be pushed aside and left in the dust of history. A nation as great as ours cannot be without a champion and a team behind him that can beat anybody in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernnorm Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 About Sanz beating US Pros I feel unless a lot has changed w/ her riding over the last year she will fall in right where Ray Peters would normally be when he rode Pro,somewhere close to 5th place,as in Duluth when they were on the same line I think they were very close in points probably swapping wins against each other. She rides very well but probably has a little trouble with very difficult,larger things ,regardless the event will be a great one with many great riders,sounds like some of these posters would maybe want to be placing wagers like at a dog track? As far as what lines are being ridden by whom,now that it's too late to change I feel the NATC round should have been a week before or after and run by itself as usual . Many tough decisions ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 A nation as great as ours..... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Man I was really getting into that soapbox speech until you said that I want to see Pat Smage over here in the UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Norm, while I was not part of the discussions, I am certain that it was debated as to what would be the best scenario to draw in the most participants, both for the USGP, the Nationals and for the spectator standpoint. There are certainly some flaws in the way it has dropped out, but I believe that they made the best set of compromises they could with the available set of circumstances. Looks like I am loosing at least one of the observors (probably 2) that I expected due to High School graduations in our area being on that weekend. I do think it will be an exceptional event for the US though, and there will be something going on for everybody to not only watch, but participate in as well. Looking forward to seeing all you guys down here then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan bechard Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Oh, and Mich,,, Troy is a MOVIE,,, It is not real life. In real life the work is done by a bunch of average guys, pulling along and helping each other out. There may be one guy at the point, but for it to be successful there is an army of folks out there doing the drudge work and actually making it happen. And then there is one guy sitting on the side telling everyone how it is supposed to work.... that adds nothing but distraction to the equation. I think he was called the court jester in medieval times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted March 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 (edited) Alan, Days of our Lives and Dalles are TV shows, You took us there first! At least Troy had a manly message! Also A.B. I'm very greatful to all the hard working folks who make this sport great. Without the organizers, observers and national federations we have nothing but practice. We also have to give greater credit to the top riders like Raga, Cabby, Lampkin, Fugigas and the rest of the WCT field, lastly let's don't forget the amazing Laia Sanz! These youngsters sacrafice so much to be World Contenders, sure lots of people contribute a lot to the sport, through advocation but these youngsters sacrafice their youth to the sport. Which can never be recovered! One day they wake up in adulthood no longer able to score world championship points, with no factory ride, no job, no education other than trials and traveling. Then they must make the best of the rest of their lives somehow and become productive members of society while their peers and former schoolmates have already established themselves through college and in business. They must then start at square one, years behind the rest of their generation. Remember, without the superstars, we have no show at a World Championship trial, indoors or outdoors! They take all the physical risks, train insanely hard and work under tremendous pressures. Nobody works as hard or as long as the riders or sacrifices or risks as much as they do for trials. Edited March 26, 2006 by Mich Lin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Hey Mich... If you are so fired up that the "young tigers" get the support they need why are you waiting for somebody else to do it? As my opinion is, (yep, we all have one) The NATC is formed for US national events. If someone would like to compete in the world rounds then they need to find the avenues necessary to do so. (training, sponsorship, minder, etc..) Likewise it is not the resposibilty of a local club to train its riders for national competition, the NATC is not responsible to train our national champions for World competition. Would I like to see a US rider in World competition? Of course that would be great! Just some random thoughts that fell off the flat spot of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich lin Posted March 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 (edited) Zippy, thanks for those random thoughts! My random thought on your comments is everything always must work for the greater good. Consider Moto-Cross where Americans are the best riders in the world. Local MX prepares riders for regional events, regional events for MX nationals and Supercross. That's how we kicked everyone's @ss at the MX De Nations time and again. Each step in MX prepares the riders for the next! This progression allows everyone to find their level, test the next and drop back if they need to. Yet it provides that clear path to the top of the game, where fame and fortune await. American trials cannot do that! In contrast, our US Trials nationals now fail to prepare our best trials riders for the Trials De Nations or World Championship, they fall short. We now have the horrible international results we see today in trials, simply because we lack these simple stepping stones! It would be very simple for the national federation "the NATC" to bring back these stepping stones we had during Bernie's day. A simple plan was presented to them at the last NATC meeting, it provided harder sections for the best 5 riders only. Increased the size of the field in the pro class bringing up the pressure and provided the correct stepping stones to the World Championship.All the while maintaining the great sportsmen competition that the NATC is famous for. In my opinion where the NATC has dropped the ball and now painted themselves into a corner is depending only on the sportsmen riders for their survival. They have had to dig deeper and deeper into the lower level sportmen class clubmen riders to fill thier national field. Creating a situation where 17 different age classes are needed to keep the entry up near 100 riders. Instead of investing in BOTH the sportsmen age groups AND the next generation of Superstars, they have put all their eggs in the one sportsmen rider basket. Which is now failing them! Of course this was all Dr. Wagner's plan for years, depend on the sportsmen, not the superstars for federation survival. He has picked an excellent time to leave the NATC, a critical time where his overall plan has crashed and burned. Leaving our national federation in a pickle. The only clear way out of this situation is adopting the comprimise plan proposed to the NATC last session. It allows all the current sportmen competition, yet reconnects the NATC with the outside world. Allowing another American team of riders to contest the world championship and win again. To sponsor anyone or try to contest the world championship without proper domestic steppping stone in the NATC system. Would simply be a waist of energy in my opinion. The last area of success and failure of the NATC is this! They have created a system of nationals that produce the very best senior riders on the planet. Yet they fail to leverage this amazing fact. Why dosnt' the NATC step outside it's bubble and challege the rest of the world to a Senior Trials De Nation? I'd say an event where one rider must be in their 40s, one rider in their 50s and one rider in their 60s. I think that the NATC/AMA team would kick the rear of any in the world. This idea however does not deserve any support however, unless our young future superstars get the support they deserve from the NATC/AMA. It would look really foolish of the NATC to step out and challenge the world, if our proper TDN team can't do the same. Edited March 26, 2006 by Mich Lin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsaqam Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 I have to agree with Mich Lin. Although watching the World Rounds was amazing I was saddened that the Americans weren't represented. I asked "why isn't Geoff Aaron here?" The answer was unsatisfactory. Why should not U.S. trials organizations play by the same rules as the Worlds best do? Why shouldn't they support young riders with talent so they can compete for wins on the World stage? His comparison to the MX scene are right on, we have a stepping stone system in MX and it has served us well. What is the argument against a 125 class youth championship? All this is not to say that the age classes in NATC are wrong but that the NATC should support those who plan and desire to compete at the World class level. What could be wrong with that? I'm proud when Ricky Carmichael, Kevin Windham, and Ivan Tedesco beat the best the World has to offer. I'll jump for joy when my 7 year old daughter becomes Womens World Champion and I think that our trials organizations should have the same desire and actually do something to make that a realistic possibility. What could be wrong with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Taking up the MX comparison again, if Ricky Carmichael, James Stewart and some of the others are the best racers in the world, how come we don't see them at world championship events (apart from their annual "charity" appearance at the Motocross Of Nations where they frequently look as though they'd rather be elsewhere)? The reason is simple: They race for the money, not the sport. That's not necessarily a criticism, I'm just suggesting that the sporting culture in the US is such that so-called traditional values such as sportsmanship and a "because it's there" attitude to apparently insurmountable challenges will always be pushed to one corner when the sponsor's cheque book appears. You could argue that it's just how things work in the modern world but I don't think that explains it completely. What do you think motivates Dougie at the start of each new season? I'm pretty sure that his salary, although psychologically important to any professional sportsperson as an estimate of their worth to their employers, is secondary to his desire to win another world title and I'm willing to bet that the same it true of virtually all of the WTC competitors. Although I'm sure that the top riders make a good living, there just ain't that much money in trials. Maybe there's the problem. Maybe the NATC organisers recognise this and have at least subconciously decided that the money's not there to motivate the up and coming young riders so there's no point in promoting the US at a world level 'cos they just ain't gonna make it. What's lacking is that "screw 'em, we're gonna do it no matter what" attitude that is now accepted as a pre-requisite for success in a minority interest sport elsewhere. This isn't meant to be a criticism of the way that the sport is run in the US - to be honest I know very little about the NATC and its organisers. I'm just suggesting that it might be a "groupthink" cultural attitude difference that's the problem. I know that several young US riders are actually trying to do it for themselves and good on 'em but from what I've read it does seem as though they're working with one hand tied behind their backs. As a completely uninformed foreigner, I'm simply saying what I see and suggesting what the missing piece may be. Putting it another way, is the collective American psyche able to deal with the sport of trials? There are people on here who would be able to confirm or debunk this theory (I'm thinking of Ishy in particular). Care to comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 OK I will admit that the NATC should do more for supporting american trials riders and if the NATC adopted the same rules as the world rounds this would help our riders compete with the best in the world. We must also remember that it is the riders choice and/or personal drive whether or not to compete at the world level also. There are many factors involved. Mich, after all that about how it is the NATC's fault and how they drop the ball, you still did not answer my question. If it is so important to you what are you doing to assist our world champion caliber riders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsaqam Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 There wasn't much money to be had in MX until they started to draw large crowds and get TV deals. These things happened because someone saw how incredible these events were (particularly Supercross) and thought they could make some cash with it. I don't know the whole story involved in starting Supercross but I'd be willing to guess that it was some American and America is where most of the money in the sport comes from. Nobody can tell me that watching a Supercross is half as much fun as watching a trial event but the exposure over here is minimal. If America could produce a modern, World class trials rider who won championships at the highest level I believe that some enterprising promoter would find a way to market it and make money. If you see one World Round you are hooked but few people see any. More Americans competing at the World Championship level would generate a buzz over here that would spur increased interest from folks who haven't thought about trials ever before. Get a couple of these events on TV and the ball would start rolling. We Americans are ignorant about the rest of the World and we're arrogant too. Get some Americans winning World Championships and that may be enough to get us to pay attention. Heck, NASCAR kicks butt as a money generating product over here and I can't imagine a more lame, boring, archaic motorsports that NASCAR! BUT, all the guys racing it are named Bill, Tony, and Bubba and the American public loves it. Formula 1 on the other hand is far superior in every way but the drivers are named Juan, Ruebens, and Kimi and the Americans just don't care. Give us some top class American trialers and it could be big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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