Trials engine manufacturers

[AnthonyZ]

Do the trials brands all manufacturer their own engines in house? Or do certain brands share engines, common parts, etc?

[feetupfun]

1 hour ago, AnthonyZ said:

Do the trials brands all manufacturer their own engines in house? Or do certain brands share engines, common parts, etc?

Depends on what you define "manufacture" and "in house" to mean.

Yes. Some brands share engines with other brands. Current examples are Montesa/Honda and Sherco/Scorpa.

[turbofurball]

2 hours ago, feetupfun said:

Montesa/Honda and Sherco/Scorpa.

Though Honda owns Montesa, and Sherco owns Scorpa, so those are more a case of badge engineering, lol

Historically some brands have used the engines of others (Scorpas with Yamaha engines for example), but the vast majority are in-house efforts because they're in competition with each other, and engine design is a major source of competitive advantage.  Most parts outside of standard things like bearings are incompatible.

[tony27]

Beta & Sherco shared a few parts in the 2000s, fibre plates & pistons for the 270/290 for example. 

[AnthonyZ]

I guess had wondered, do each manufacturer have a proprietary engine design, or are they buying from a few platforms and tuning to make it their own. 

I was just curious since these companies are so small, and that seems like a lot of design and development. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by AnthonyZ

[faussy]

The engine and frames are all that they do though. Everything else, suspension and wheels, are all shared. Head and barrels used to be made by s3 for a while across multiple manufactures, to each manufacturers spec however.  When the frames and engines only undergo a major development change once every 10 years its not that much of a development. Gasgas and montesa have basically used the same engine for the last 20 years. Im not a beta expert, but i think its basic engine design hasnt changed in well over 20 years

Edited October 5, 2023 by faussy

[AnthonyZ]

Aaaah. I see. When explained so well, that makes total sense 😃

[turbofurball]

Thinking about it, I wonder if thats why all the "old" manufacturers have dragged their heels on electric bikes, because then they'd have to do some serious development work

[AnthonyZ]

Oh for sure. And they'd have to hire people too. Almost completely different engineering disciplines. 

[lemur]

8 hours ago, faussy said:

The engine and frames are all that they do though. Everything else, suspension and wheels, are all shared. Head and barrels used to be made by s3 for a while across multiple manufactures, to each manufacturers spec however.  When the frames and engines only undergo a major development change once every 10 years its not that much of a development. Gasgas and montesa have basically used the same engine for the last 20 years. Im not a beta expert, but i think its basic engine design hasnt changed in well over 20 years

Plastics

Huge difference between makes in both durability and replacement cost, especially if you want it with stickers.

add: Then there is ISSO which is a manufacturing process specification that allows companies like Honda to manufacture 4RT engines anywhere in the world that facilities exist.

Edited October 5, 2023 by lemur

[lineaway]

Gas Gas out sourced each part almost. Thats why it got hard during all the financial hardships to get new vendors.

 

[Butch]

Interesting. I never knew Sherco and Scorpa were related. I knew about the Montesa, Honda thing because I owned an 02  Montesa. I remember the clutch cover ( I think) having an HRC emblem. That's a long time ago lol. But I remember that 

[feetupfun]

4 hours ago, Butch said:

Interesting. I never knew Sherco and Scorpa were related. I knew about the Montesa, Honda thing because I owned an 02  Montesa. I remember the clutch cover ( I think) having an HRC emblem. That's a long time ago lol. But I remember that 

Scorpa trials bikes originally had Rotax motors, then Yamaha motors, then they had financial problems and were bought out by Sherco. From then, they have had Sherco motors.

[ChrisCH]

On 10/5/2023 at 4:16 PM, turbofurball said:

Thinking about it, I wonder if thats why all the "old" manufacturers have dragged their heels on electric bikes, because then they'd have to do some serious development work

The other factor is that you need to sell as much as possible of the old technology to recover the development costs from the old engines.

My missus is really getting to like the EM and it has made me think my next bike will be a Mecatecno.  The Yam TYE is still awaiting launch but might be interesting.  Most of the big names do a kid's version.

[trapezeartist]

On 10/5/2023 at 4:16 PM, turbofurball said:

Thinking about it, I wonder if thats why all the "old" manufacturers have dragged their heels on electric bikes, because then they'd have to do some serious development work

What you call the old manufacturers are in danger of missing the boat. All they had to do was develop the motor and battery. EM and Mecatecno had to design and develop everything, and they've done it very successfully.