turbofurball Posted October 11, 2023 Report Share Posted October 11, 2023 17 hours ago, trapezeartist said: What you call the old manufacturers are in danger of missing the boat. All they had to do was develop the motor and battery. EM and Mecatecno had to design and develop everything, and they've done it very successfully. As is the way with many established businesses ... just look at how oil companies haven't invested in renewables and are now loosing more and more business to them, even though it's been evident for a long time that that's where the wind is blowing (pun intended) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djr Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) Regarding electric trials bikes, I think electric enthusiasts may be overestimating the demand for electric. Sure, there is a market for them, but perhaps the "old manufacturers" have done some market research and found that at the moment the majority of customers are quite happy with a 2stroke, so why not carry on selling what people want. While still building electric prototypes, if the market changes in the future. Edited October 18, 2023 by djr Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 As it is raining and cold I am riding the wife's EM in the warehouse (not catch me going out in this). It is brilliant for me to practice my nose wheelies on and I have even got the hang of low speed turns now (front brake is the secret). I am happy with my 250RR TRS for sure but if the battery bikes' can get down to the right price I think they will become the biggest seller by a long way. The advantages of battery are bigger than the advantages of the petrol engine. But - for sure - we are not there yet. The new EM is ten grand versus 7 for a new TRS. The EM is not quite "sorted" (maybe newer ones are better? Our is '21) for me the CoG is (slightly) too far forward. (Battery weight). At the weekend we met some folks at the practice ground with a couple of young kids. The girl was a good rider and could be very good if she keeps at it (let's hope so), Her first bike was a little Mecatecno kids electric. There is another family that ride there and their kids have the more common Oset. All the kids like the wife's EM and by the time they are grown up will be competent with a battery bike. For us oldies the switch (sorry) is harder as you have got used to a petrol engine and the technique{s} that goes with it. I don't think it is the petrol users' market as such but the cost and choice that is the brake on battery bikes right now. The Dragonfly could be a game changer. But not for me at ten grand - bit too much for my budget. I will have one when the secondhand ones get down to 5-6 grand. IMHO battery will be at least half the bikes competing in 10 years time. (I am hanging on to my petrol road bike though) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbofurball Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 hour ago, djr said: ... so why not carry on selling what people want. Because we're killing the planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konrad Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 hour ago, djr said: Regarding electric trials bikes, I think electric enthusiasts may be overestimating the demand for electric. After one year of owning an EM Race, I agree. Yesterday I rode my EM and my OSSA in the same areas. The EM is a fabulous trail bike, but the OSSA is a better trials bike (for me). The EM's complete lack of vibration and minimal noise coupled with no need to start it make for a much less fatiguing riding experience. The bike's forte seems to be climbing. But I'm unwilling to attempt my most difficult obstacles with it. I find it really difficult to generate lift without velocity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemur Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 11 minutes ago, turbofurball said: Because we're killing the planet. We are all going to drive electric powered vehicles to save the planet? 🤔 Can't see it happening that way, too many wars in the works, the planet is doomed unless you can first eliminate human conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 16 minutes ago, lemur said: We are all going to drive electric powered vehicles to save the planet? 🤔 Can't see it happening that way, too many wars in the works, the planet is doomed unless you can first eliminate human conflict. Electric is perfect for trials bikes. Nothing to do with any ideas of pollution or climate change - if you care about that then give up motorsports/cars/bikes altogether. My TRS barely uses a litre per trial so the "fuel" is neither here nor there in terms of CO2 or NOx. The benefit is not having to go to the petrol station with a little can, then mix up some 2T then have to replace the spark plug, clean the carb, decoke/repack the exhaust, change the coolant and repair all the moving parts as they wear out. Just charge it up and go. If you are right about the planet then the batteries will outlast our species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, konrad said: But I'm unwilling to attempt my most difficult obstacles with it. I find it really difficult to generate lift without velocity. How high are you trying to lift? I agree this is the worst part of the bike's ability and I can see it being a problem for really good riders. If you compress the forks it tackles up to half a metre without any issue. The factory riders do much bigger stuff than this. The TRS gives front wheel lift with a tiny bit of clutch and the EM does not, but my old Rev3 needed fork compression. Just that the TRS is a whole lot easier and I have become lazy. There is a good long term review of the EM on IRC Tire USA Moto on YouTube. (He is using it indoors like me). Some guidance on vertical lift on that - he is about 3,000 times better rider than me to be fair. (ref BZV-UnGhyhE if you want to watch it) Edited October 18, 2023 by ChrisCH add some info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbofurball Posted October 19, 2023 Report Share Posted October 19, 2023 18 hours ago, lemur said: We are all going to drive electric powered vehicles to save the planet? 🤔 Can't see it happening that way, too many wars in the works, the planet is doomed unless you can first eliminate human conflict. Oh well, we'd better not bother doing anything then. In other news, I went to a trial that took place in a little wooded valley, a really good place for a trial since the logs were a bit slippery and ground squishy with dead wet leaves. It was tight enough that the exhaust smoke didn't dissipate; I decided to head out early after the first couple of bikes went through because I was getting a headache from the fumes ... haven't had that since I used to work in a HGV garage, back before there were emissions regulations. These days I live in a nature reserve and TBH I'm not really feeling like I want to contribute to the detriment of nature, I love bikes but I'm finding I have little will to ride my 2T bikes nowadays. Actually thinking about it, this is probably it for me regarding trials, since a switch to electric is never going to happen for twinshock events and that's where my interest is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 19, 2023 Report Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, turbofurball said: ... Actually thinking about it, this is probably it for me regarding trials, since a switch to electric is never going to happen for twinshock events and that's where my interest is. If you look round there are conversion kits and DIY electric components for older bikes. I don't know if the one for Gasgas would fit older bikes but worth a look. https://www.eta-motors.com/englisch/txt4822/ Such a conversion makes a lot of sense as engine components might be hard to come by and alternative cycle parts easier to find. The only issue I can see is if you ride in a competition they will not know which category to put you in. There is a very big industry putting electric motors into classic cars and making a vehicle that is useful for day to day driving. Mega bucks though. For road vehicles the batteries are not quite there yet unless you can afford a Tesla, but for trials the capacity is more than enough. The missus' EM has impressed me and Konrad's website is fantastic as a resource for owners. You do need to adapt your riding style and get used to the machine which takes a while and is probably why the electric bikes are being made to be so much like an ICE. The EM gets a lot of interest when we ride at the club events and at the practice ground. I honestly think people will move over to EV if the cost is right. At least 4-5 people at our club would do so if they could find a reasonable priced bike. This might be worth a look. https://www.miromax.lt/en/m-6/c-26/c-50-electric_motorcycle_conversion_kits/product-276-e-motorcycle_conversion_kit_20hp_10-13kw Edited October 19, 2023 by ChrisCH add url Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trapezeartist Posted October 19, 2023 Report Share Posted October 19, 2023 2 hours ago, ChrisCH said: Such a conversion makes a lot of sense as engine components might be hard to come by and alternative cycle parts easier to find. The only issue I can see is if you ride in a competition they will not know which category to put you in. There is a very big industry putting electric motors into classic cars and making a vehicle that is useful for day to day driving. Mega bucks though. For road vehicles the batteries are not quite there yet unless you can afford a Tesla, but for trials the capacity is more than enough. The missus' EM has impressed me and Konrad's website is fantastic as a resource for owners. You do need to adapt your riding style and get used to the machine which takes a while and is probably why the electric bikes are being made to be so much like an ICE. The EM gets a lot of interest when we ride at the club events and at the practice ground. I honestly think people will move over to EV if the cost is right. At least 4-5 people at our club would do so if they could find a reasonable priced bike. Converting "classic" cars to electric is fine for Morris Minors and VW Beetles. There are loads of them, they're relatively cheap and originality is not highly valued. I can't imagine anyone doing a conversion on a Ferrari Daytona or a Bentley Continental though. Many of the people I know in trials are Pre-65 or Twinshock riders and for them "old" is a virtue that outweighs nearly everything else. They are unlikely to change. EM in particular have bent over backwards to woo petrol riders by making their bikes behave like petrol. Personally I think that's a mistake and they should embrace the benefits of electric. However the biggest obstacle is price. It's what stops me chopping in my '21 EM for a newer one or a Mecatecno. I understand the high development costs that the manufacturers have incurred but perhaps they should spread the amortisation of those costs a bit more thinly and then they would sell more bikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 19, 2023 Report Share Posted October 19, 2023 46 minutes ago, trapezeartist said: Converting "classic" cars to electric is fine for Morris Minors and VW Beetles. There are loads of them, they're relatively cheap and originality is not highly valued. I can't imagine anyone doing a conversion on a Ferrari Daytona or a Bentley Continental though. Many of the people I know in trials are Pre-65 or Twinshock riders and for them "old" is a virtue that outweighs nearly everything else. They are unlikely to change. EM in particular have bent over backwards to woo petrol riders by making their bikes behave like petrol. Personally I think that's a mistake and they should embrace the benefits of electric. However the biggest obstacle is price. It's what stops me chopping in my '21 EM for a newer one or a Mecatecno. I understand the high development costs that the manufacturers have incurred but perhaps they should spread the amortisation of those costs a bit more thinly and then they would sell more bikes. For sure a lot of old classics (cars or bikes) are "worth more" in original condition. There is a sizable market for better classics though and some pretty expensive cars (and expensive conversions) These guys do a lot and have an interesting YouTube channel https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/past-projects We have a few old timers at the club, BSA and so on and I agree the engine is part of the ride. That said if a twinshock floats your boat and you want electric as the fuel there isn't anything stopping you. Price is the issue for me too. I love the idea of an electric twinshock but the donor bike is two grand plus and the kit is the same sort of money. Five grand buys a EM with all the modern kit, Tech forks and braktec brakes make it a formidable machine. Not sure I want to ride too much with drum brakes. EM are a small French outfit and probably not in a position to access much finance. One of the disadvantages of being an early mover. We bought ours at a good price as it had a bit of cosmetic damage. Friend wanted the old Beta and was willing to pay the correct price as well so that helped. 10 grand for the Dragonfly is too much for me, plus there is another development cycle to go through for that model I think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted October 19, 2023 Report Share Posted October 19, 2023 Electric trials toys are irrelevant really in terms of the world, it really doesn't matter if they are petrol or electric. They are first world toys. The bigger concern is in places like India and Africa where motorcycles are basic transport and ridden / worked to death every day as basic transport. Is the world going to go over to electric instead of a petrol Honda Cub or CG125 ? Then you have a bigger set of questions to address... I've ridden a couple of electric trials bikes, they are not for me. I found them difficult to judge how much power to apply and getting grip on very slippery turns the last time I rode one was difficult for me. To the extent that I was dabbing on tight uphill turns where I could repeatedly clean on my C15. So to me the note and feel of a petrol engine and finding grip in slippery conditions is what trials is all about to me. Take my petrol bikes away and I'll stop riding trials. Probably be different if I had never been enjoying what I have known for the last 45 years. My youngest trials bike is 46 years old and the oldest is 73. None of them are even close to being worn out, so very unlikely I'll need an electric bike to replace them... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyZ Posted October 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2023 So......... do vertigo still use s3 heads and cylinder jugs? Anyone else? 🙃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 19, 2023 Report Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 hour ago, jon v8 said: Electric trials toys are irrelevant really in terms of the world, it really doesn't matter if they are petrol or electric. They are first world toys. The bigger concern is in places like India and Africa where motorcycles are basic transport and ridden / worked to death every day as basic transport. Is the world going to go over to electric instead of a petrol Honda Cub or CG125 ? Then you have a bigger set of questions to address... I can't see the fleet of old Honda Cubs retiring. At 100mpg they are not much of an issue in terms of CO2. Besides they last for ever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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