Why I'm considering not going to Trials Comps.

[bikerpet]

This is very much just a personal observation, but I'd be interested to hear how it resonates with others.

The last "regular" trial I went to was a bit of an exercise in frustration - I was (knowingly) riding a grade at & above my abilities because I enjoy a challenge and I don't care about placings. I ride for self-satisfaction.
That 2-day event saw me really struggle in parts, taking voluntary 5's on a couple of sections. The second day I dropped down a grade which at least let me ride every section.

Last weekend I went to my first Gate Trial.
Lot's of fun - more fun than I think I've ever had at a comp.
Last lap I decided to go for maximum points (11) on every section. I ended the lap with 9 x 0 and 1 x 11, total of 11 out of possible 122. LOL. And had a blast. Totally different experience to getting 5's at the previous event.

Reflecting on the difference I realised a big part of it was that at the gate trial I could mostly ride at least the majority of the section even if it was going to end in a failure. There were only 30 or so riders, so no one was too stressed if I continued to finish the section after a dab (failure). There's also sometimes the ability to structure your ride so the hardest obstacle is later in the section.
In a regular trial once you 5 then you have to leave the section. If that hard obstacle is one of the first, then you'll never get to ride the rest of the section.

So now I'm seriously considering how interested I am in going to more than the odd Trial. I enjoy riding challenging obstacles, I enjoy riding terrain different from my home area, I enjoy riding what others have set. But I'm not interested in spending $100+ dollars and usually 6 hours driving time to go to an event where I only get to ride a percentage of the sections.

If the rules where modified so it was OK to complete the section after a failure, even with a very short time limit - say 30 seconds, then it might be different. At least then I'd get to challenge myself, and get to ride everything I can.

Of course the other option is to drop down a grade and change my idea of challenge to simply keeping my feet up and getting a much lower score. Strange idea I know.
I'm working on changing my mindset to emphasize low scoring on easier obstacles, but damn it, I enjoy having a crack at harder obstacles!

I guess it is largely the difference between comps as competition, and comps as practice. I go to comps to ride on something I can't at home, and to ride with others. The competition itself is a very distant third.

What do you think? Does it take away from the enjoyment when you have to ride conservatively in order to get to ride everything in the sections?

[feetupfun]

7 hours ago, bikerpet said:

This is very much just a personal observation, but I'd be interested to hear how it resonates with others.

The last "regular" trial I went to was a bit of an exercise in frustration - I was (knowingly) riding a grade at & above my abilities because I enjoy a challenge and I don't care about placings. I ride for self-satisfaction.
That 2-day event saw me really struggle in parts, taking voluntary 5's on a couple of sections. The second day I dropped down a grade which at least let me ride every section.

Last weekend I went to my first Gate Trial.
Lot's of fun - more fun than I think I've ever had at a comp.
Last lap I decided to go for maximum points (11) on every section. I ended the lap with 9 x 0 and 1 x 11, total of 11 out of possible 122. LOL. And had a blast. Totally different experience to getting 5's at the previous event.

Reflecting on the difference I realised a big part of it was that at the gate trial I could mostly ride at least the majority of the section even if it was going to end in a failure. There were only 30 or so riders, so no one was too stressed if I continued to finish the section after a dab (failure). There's also sometimes the ability to structure your ride so the hardest obstacle is later in the section.
In a regular trial once you 5 then you have to leave the section. If that hard obstacle is one of the first, then you'll never get to ride the rest of the section.

So now I'm seriously considering how interested I am in going to more than the odd Trial. I enjoy riding challenging obstacles, I enjoy riding terrain different from my home area, I enjoy riding what others have set. But I'm not interested in spending $100+ dollars and usually 6 hours driving time to go to an event where I only get to ride a percentage of the sections.

If the rules where modified so it was OK to complete the section after a failure, even with a very short time limit - say 30 seconds, then it might be different. At least then I'd get to challenge myself, and get to ride everything I can.

Of course the other option is to drop down a grade and change my idea of challenge to simply keeping my feet up and getting a much lower score. Strange idea I know.
I'm working on changing my mindset to emphasize low scoring on easier obstacles, but damn it, I enjoy having a crack at harder obstacles!

I guess it is largely the difference between comps as competition, and comps as practice. I go to comps to ride on something I can't at home, and to ride with others. The competition itself is a very distant third.

What do you think? Does it take away from the enjoyment when you have to ride conservatively in order to get to ride everything in the sections?

Lots of people ride in competition trials events without using a scorecard. They just ride whatever line they want to challenge themselves with. Also lots of people enter the grade they feel comfortable riding and sometimes take a harder route to increase the challenge. I set lots of sections and my goal is to do it so that people can ride higher grade lines without going outside the gates for the grade they entered.

Yes gate trials are great fun and they are also a competition. I love the mental aspect of gate trials in that the better you know your riding ability (and act on it when choosing gates), the higher you will place.

[bikerpet]

3 minutes ago, feetupfun said:

Lots of people ride in competition trials events without using a scorecard. They just ride whatever line they want to challenge themselves with. Also lots of people enter the grade they feel comfortable riding and sometimes take a harder route to increase the challenge. I set lots of sections and my goal is to do it so that people can ride higher grade lines without going outside the gates for the grade they entered.

Yes gate trials are great fun and they are also a competition. I love the mental aspect of gate trials in that the better you know your riding ability (and act on it when choosing gates), the higher you will place.

At our events you ride the line you enter for. If you miss an obstacle it's a 5, and if it's a 5 you are expected to leave the section directly.
It's possible I suppose to ride whatever line I feel like - you haven't definitively missed a gate until you ride out the end gate, so they can't 5 you until you're out I guess. Although there would quite often be gates that would become unachievable without crossing your track once you pass them, therefore a 5.

I haven't really considered doing that before. I suspect it would be rather frowned upon but I'm not sure they would actually stop you. Probably tell you pretty firmly that it's just not cricket though. Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps I'll ask.

I enjoyed the Gate trial for almost the opposite reason to you - I could ride lines that were 90% sure to place me even lower 🙂

[lemur]

Sounds like your sections are not set up anywhere Near the way I set out a trial.   When I set out gates there is generally an obvious continuous flow from the start to the exit.  I generally put the hardest most spectacular part right at the section entrance so that riders have a good choice of lines to approach the biggest challenge.  I make the lines wide enough that riders have options and that helps if the weather degrades before or during the event.  Never seen anyone refused the opportunity to finish riding through a section after taking a 5 unless they were simply holding up a line of other riders and didn't stand a chance of following through.

I'm fortunate to have 2 classes indicated on my competition license, I can compete as Intermediate if I'm feeling very olympic, or I can ride down to the Junior line and compete in Grand Veteran class.    We don't have time limits in the sections for the simple reason we don't have the manpower to support timers, we are lucky just to get checkers.  Riding any line you want to ride non-competitively is considered Clubman class and results are basically not tabulated.  That would include riders riding down a line due to recent injury.

Gate trials as you described where you earn points for negotiating specific gates, we haven't even tried that yet.  It would likely be too much for our checkers to handle.

Time limits within a section is not an issue if the sections are designed well and with the intent to be ridden non-stop, if nobody can finish a section within 90 seconds or so then clearly the section is too long.  Three difficult parts in a section is usually sufficient, if you put six hard parts in a section then time in the section is going to become a problem.  If one or more riders go clean all day I consider that to be a fail in setting out the sections or the riders are riding down a line, I like to get some points from everyone and points total between the classes should be relatively balanced, there should not be a class where everybody has a high score or again that was a fail in section setup.

I build a Lot of trials events and they are generally well received.  lol and it sounds like we don't charge enough for entry fee, most of our events only cost about 25$ to enter.

 

[bikerpet]

8 hours ago, lemur said:

Sounds like your sections are not set up anywhere Near the way I set out a trial.   When I set out gates there is generally an obvious continuous flow from the start to the exit.  I generally put the hardest most spectacular part right at the section entrance so that riders have a good choice of lines to approach the biggest challenge.  I make the lines wide enough that riders have options and that helps if the weather degrades before or during the event.  Never seen anyone refused the opportunity to finish riding through a section after taking a 5 unless they were simply holding up a line of other riders and didn't stand a chance of following through.

I'm fortunate to have 2 classes indicated on my competition license, I can compete as Intermediate if I'm feeling very olympic, or I can ride down to the Junior line and compete in Grand Veteran class.    We don't have time limits in the sections for the simple reason we don't have the manpower to support timers, we are lucky just to get checkers.  Riding any line you want to ride non-competitively is considered Clubman class and results are basically not tabulated.  That would include riders riding down a line due to recent injury.

Gate trials as you described where you earn points for negotiating specific gates, we haven't even tried that yet.  It would likely be too much for our checkers to handle.

Time limits within a section is not an issue if the sections are designed well and with the intent to be ridden non-stop, if nobody can finish a section within 90 seconds or so then clearly the section is too long.  Three difficult parts in a section is usually sufficient, if you put six hard parts in a section then time in the section is going to become a problem.  If one or more riders go clean all day I consider that to be a fail in setting out the sections or the riders are riding down a line, I like to get some points from everyone and points total between the classes should be relatively balanced, there should not be a class where everybody has a high score or again that was a fail in section setup.

I build a Lot of trials events and they are generally well received.  lol and it sounds like we don't charge enough for entry fee, most of our events only cost about 25$ to enter.

 

All our sections have an obvious flow to them, that's not a problem.
We run 5 classes from absolute novice ride-in ride-out, to top "Pro" class. Each class has different coloured gates, gates usually must be ridden in one direction only. Available setup and exit space generally gets progressively more restricted as the grades go up, by Trial 3 class (where I prefer to ride) some hopping is occasionally required.
Only Trial 1 runs to a time rule.
It is definitely expected that riders leave the section once they have 5'd. Sometimes observers allow you to continue if no one is waiting at the Start, but don't count on it and ask nicely.
Personally I dislike the hardest obstacle at the start - it means if I fail it or even struggle on it for a 3 then the rest of the section either can't be attempted or feels somewhat pointless. If I've already got 3, why do anything that might risk a silly 5 when it makes no difference to my score if I just put my foot down anywhere with the slightest risk? I much prefer the hardest obstacle late in the section.

I can choose whatever grade I feel like - Trial 5 if I feel totally incompetent, or Trial 1 if I want to get 5's on every section and perhaps commit suicide! But whatever grade I ride I have to ride the coloured gates for that grade or get 5 and leave the section.
I could ride Trial 5 (easiest grade), go through the white gates and attempt any other gate I felt like, but if I fail any obstacle it's a 5 & I'm expected to leave the section.
Even if I ride on a "recreational" non-competitive entry, the same rules apply.

I can see that there is possibly a path for me to enter a lower grade (Trial 4) and, in some sections that lend themselves to it, ride the odd Trial 3 obstacle that is challenging but not too challenging and which still allows me to get to all the T4 gates. That should allow me to complete the sections but also add some adventure. I'll think on it further.

The cost I referred to is my total cost for the day, not just entry. Our club events are maybe $40 (about USD25 I guess) and Nationals a bit above $100. Most events are around 300km (185 mi) away from me and fuel costs $2.26/L ($10.30/gallon). Fuel costs more than the entry. Plus annual comp licence fee.

Our Gate Trials tend not to be "Serious" events, they certainly don't count toward series points. So they are self observed, honesty system.
Personally I don't care if there are observers at an event or not. If someone wants to cheat that's their loss, it makes no difference to my score. I get it though that some people are much more serious about their competitions and relative results than I am.

[faussy]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:15 PM, lemur said:

 I generally put the hardest most spectacular part right at the section entrance so that riders have a good choice of lines to approach the biggest challenge.

This is what bikerpet doesnt like, and i agree with him. I prefer the hardest part of the section to be the very end. Seems more value for money that way, from both a riders point of view and the person who marked it out. If i took the effort to mark a section out and then heard later nobody made it past the first obstacle id be rather annoyed. On the flip side, if the rider gets the first big obstacle, then the rest of the section just becomes a formality, why even have it there?

Edited October 25, 2023 by faussy

[lemur]

1 minute ago, faussy said:

This is what the OP doesnt like, and i tend to agree with him. I prefer the hardest part of the section to be the very end, seems more value for money that way

So ya'll like to have a short tight turn and only one line up the hardest most technical part of the section, lol you should ride some Quebec trials.  Here's some video of my sections, seeing is probably the best way to explain it.

 

[faussy]

If youre referring to the riders at 5:30 and 5:38, if i went to a trial with 10 sections like that, that i fived 10 feet through the entrance cards, then i would never return, plain and simple.

If the rider is able to start 10 yards before the entrance cards then just make that part of the section with a similar runup, i dont see the problem here. Also, trials is not all about the biggest of rocks with big runups, its equally about shorter runups to medium steps. The former is how you drive the over 40 year old amateur away from the sport because the danger then outweighs the difficulty. Keep that stuff for the professionals and the under 30s, which make up a very small percentage of the entry. Difficult does not have to mean dangerous

Yeah i guess this terrain is nice, but its by no means special. Theres terrain like this all over the world

Edited October 25, 2023 by faussy

[lemur]

 "terrain like this all over the world". That's not what the people who travel to ride here say, and yes the 2 slopes you pointed out are tests that benefit from a run-up particularly in a rain event like that one was.

[faussy]

Any forest based trial in europe is like this. Still dont know why you cant have the majority of the section then have a turn into the part where you see the guys starting from.

[lemur]

4 minutes ago, faussy said:

Any forest based trial in europe is like this. Still dont know why you cant have the majority of the section then have a turn into the part where you see the guys starting from.

Because in a rain event the run-up gets trashed to the point where nobody can do the test.  Been there, built that trial too.  Any forest based trial that was visited by glaciers might be the same as here, riders from B.C. have said they feel right at home here.  I've been to an awful lot of events that were flat to say the least, what makes for a good trial event is somewhere you can ride all of the terrain and it is endless sections one right close to the next part.  Plus it needs to be owned by somebody willing to have people ride motorcycles all over it,  Not too many places like here, if there was I wouldn't be doing it I'd be going there to ride.

[bikerpet]

I'm much more aligned with @faussy regards the preferred location of a crux obstacle. It's not the end of the world if the hard obstacle is right at the start, but if they mostly were I'd probably drop that event down to the "least preferred" category. If the first obstacle of even a few sections were the hardest at the event I'd be unlikely to return (unless miraculously I cleaned it most laps, which suggests I'd be up with the winners, which just doesn't happen).

I don't really set sections so I defer to those who do, but I don't see any mutual exclusion between having the hardest obstacle with a decent run up at the start or later in the section.  Surely you can just move the tapes out further to allow a bit more room in most cases.  Or just choose a slightly easier obstacle/gate with that shorter run up - just as hard. There's certainly plenty of video of BIG obstacles mid-section with lots of run up.
Setting the first obstacle just inside the start gate expecting people to get a run up from well outside is fine, but it does perhaps raise the question, why are the start gates inside the "real" start of the section? Another approach would be to offset the start and put the tape where the setter believes the obstacle is achievable but suitably challenging. No right or wrong, just different ways of looking at it.
But for my time & money I want to get in as much riding as I can when I go to an event, not find that I 5 out on the first obstacle of a bunch of sections.

As for the terrain discussion - moot point. Yes there's plenty of that terrain in the world, just as there's plenty of long, rocky creek beds and massive dry grippy rock slabs and steps. But they aren't all within reach of everyone. We make the best of what we have locally available. And that also is one of the big reasons I get in my car at sparrows fart in the morning to drive 3-4 hours to a trial - so I can ride different terrain to what I have available locally. It's pretty disappointing if all I get to do is either fail sections and not get to ride them, or ride sections that don't feel particularly challenging.

I am well aware that the perception of "challenge" is totally subjective. Some people are extremely happy with the challenge of scoring 0, 1 or 2 for the day on relatively easy sections. Perhaps I should nurture that attitude. Because I far, far prefer to attempt things that are at or near my technical limit and end up with a high 2 figure score (I get a bit disappointed when it goes well into 3 figures!).
The pleasure I get from trials, be it practice or at events, is developing skills. Simply applying the ones I already have is less appealing to me. I enjoy a certain level of failure - a 1 or 2 on an obstacle that I see as right at my limit is far more gratifying than a 0 on something I'm 90% sure I can ride.

[brianrch]

Bikerpet, I like your attitude! I like gate trials but I struggle because I still worry about my score so I tend not to push myself too much (but some) in fear of a zero. Some gates score a little differently so you get points until your dab but if a failure then a zero.

In a traditional trial I ride a line probably a little above my pay grade because I do not want any easy day and low score. The only trial in 7 years that I didn't like was because it was too easy. I like a harder trial and I have scored over 100 and still had a great day, like it better than having a 10 on the day. I guess if I am scoring 30-60, I feel I am in the correct class. 

 

[bikerpet]

43 minutes ago, brianrch said:

Bikerpet, I like your attitude! I like gate trials but I struggle because I still worry about my score so I tend not to push myself too much (but some) in fear of a zero. Some gates score a little differently so you get points until your dab but if a failure then a zero.

In a traditional trial I ride a line probably a little above my pay grade because I do not want any easy day and low score. The only trial in 7 years that I didn't like was because it was too easy. I like a harder trial and I have scored over 100 and still had a great day, like it better than having a 10 on the day. I guess if I am scoring 30-60, I feel I am in the correct class. 

 

I'm still trying to work out what my attitude is. Call it conflicted.

I feel about the same as you 30-60 sounds about right to me too. 100 is not too bad a day for me. 120 is getting a bit high for fun.

My least favourite trial was the opposite - 2 sections I stopped even pretending to attempt, and too many others that I might as well not have. Exercise in frustration.

I don't think I could ever take a gate trial seriously enough to think about the score, except as a tactical game.
I really like that I can warm up with a conservative first lap, then start to up the stakes.

[lemur]

I think y'all should go out and start building and hosting Trials events, then you don't even need to ride the stuff competitively and you can show us how it's done 👍