Why I'm considering not going to Trials Comps.

[bikerpet]

5 hours ago, lemur said:

I think y'all should go out and start building and hosting Trials events, then you don't even need to ride the stuff competitively and you can show us how it's done 👍

I get the feeling you might think we're being critical of those like yourself who set and run events.
I assure you that's not the case.

This is just about what it is about events that make them personally appealing or not. It's the same as you might prefer a Honda & I prefer a TRS - no right or wrong, just preferences.
Some people go to competitions strictly for the competition - they want to strive to win or improve their placings. I get that, but it holds no interest to me personally. I've been a serious competitor at world champs level in another sport and I don't need to go there again.
Some people ride events largely for the social gathering - that's part of my motivation.
I'm still trying to work out exactly where my motivation lies. I know it's not competing for placings and I know it's only partly about assessing my skills against someone else's section setting. I think it's more about getting in a good ride on different terrain with other people and with people who ride better and can show me new approaches or give me confidence. It's more about challenge and learning.
Finding the right balance of challenge, success, failure, and attitude for me is what I'm trying to sort out.

So the way you prefer to set sections may not be the most appealing to me, but it may be ideal for someone else. No problem. It's just that I might choose not to ride in events with your style of setting because it doesn't tick the boxes for my particular desires.

In some ways I think I'd be happier going to Practice/Training days rather than comps, but at least around here they are nearly as rare as hen's teeth. It's comps or nothing. I guess that's because there are a significant number of people who wouldn't come if it's not a comp, so then it becomes non-viable to run. Although perhaps a practice day with a the right balance of competition sections and training challenges could be a winner?
I do note that some of our more popular events are also some the least "serious".

My current favourite event is a two day event, Top Naas out of Canberra. 2 laps of 20+ sections, run in a figure 8 so you can refuel easily. You ride in pairs, depart at 30 sec intervals and self score.
Really enjoyable. The transfers between sections are mostly fun single track that rides like MTB track, almost as fun as the sections themselves. The sections are challenging but not super hard or anything I call scary.
Lots of riding, always with someone to discuss sections and push each other along, not a lot of waiting in line. And a nice campfire and yack in the evening.
Excellent event.
But I note that not too many of the "Guns" show up to that event. It's probably not competitive enough or hard enough for those striving for the pointy end.

We're all different.

[lemur]

Got it, you don't want to ride in events because you don't like the format 😐 and you are not being critical of the people that build them 😎 guessing few here have previously hosted or are planning to host any future events, indeed, we are all different.  I'm still cleaning up after the last one and planning the next one, which requires a great deal of riding and planning, and I'm good with that.

Edited October 26, 2023 by lemur

[brianrch]

7 hours ago, lemur said:

I think y'all should go out and start building and hosting Trials events, then you don't even need to ride the stuff competitively and you can show us how it's done 👍

Well I didn't say anything negative, plus I work and help setup events every year.  There is a different mindset and strategy when it comes to a traditional or a gate plus as in all competition you are battling yourself sometimes more than the competition. 

[bikerpet]

29 minutes ago, lemur said:

Got it, you don't want to ride in events because you don't like the format 😐 and you are not being critical of the people that build them 😎 guessing few here have previously hosted or are planning to host any future events, indeed, we are all different.  I'm still cleaning up after the last one and planning the next one, which requires a great deal of riding and planning, and I'm good with that.

There's a big difference between talking about what engages an individual and criticising those who provide a service!
No-one here has said that anything being done is 'bad' or 'wrong'. We've just talked about our personal preferences.

I don't want to race motocross or enduro, but that's not a criticism of the events or those who run them.
I don't want to ride the Novice T5 line, nor do I want (or have anything close to the ability!) to ride the Expert T1 line. But that doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with how they are set.
You prefer to set the hardest obstacle at the entry, for sensible reasons & based on your experience. A couple of us have said we prefer to see it toward the end. No right or wrong, just preferences based on our personal experience. For every one of us who might choose not to ride your sections, I've no doubt there's as many or maybe more who love them. All good.
When I ride an event, even one I come away from feeling depressed, disappointed and frustrated, I am sure to thank those who made the day possible - with full sincerity. My response to an event is my problem, not theirs.

I've spent considerable time establishing, running and competing in events in other sports that now I have absolutely zero interest in attending. I hope they continue to be run similarly to the way they always were. They just no longer fulfill my particular desires. All good.

I've two aims for this discussion.

1. Try to get more clarity about my own motivations. I hope that comments from others might give me some tools to modify my attitude. I think I've already got some clues.
2. Tease out some ideas for events to make them more attractive to people who are perhaps, like me, a little conflicted about traditional Trials events. This because in fact I am involved with a small group trying to establish a Trials Club in our region and I see that if we want a change from the medium/long term decline in event numbers in our State then we need to do something different. Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result is not a rational option. In our case there is a significant and longer term decline in numbers. If we want enough people attending to make events viable then we obviously need to arrest & reverse that decline. Your experience may vary.

Regards number 2. above, by far the biggest club in our State has several hundred members, most of whom ride recreationally at the club grounds. Yet there are only perhaps 20 or 30 who go to competitions. This suggests to me that there's something unattractive about the structure of the current events to a majority of trials bike owners. I look at my own mixed feelings and try to work out what it is that attracts me and what it is that puts me off. Getting some more views here can only help come up with ideas to try. That doesn't mean we need to turn trials into something new and different - there's still a place for conventional trials comps. But perhaps there's room for some tweaking at some events to broaden the appeal? Maybe some events continue to attract the "competitors" and other events are re-structured to attract more of the less competitive sorts?

We're all just mucking about with trials bikes for enjoyment, there's barely more than a couple of handfuls of riders and event organisers across the globe who are really making a living out of this! It's not sheep stations we're talking about here!
I love riding trials, but it's a bloody stupid activity looked at entirely objectively - why on earth would you deliberately try to ride the hardest possible route through a tiny little area that has to be taped out and marked for you? Why would you spend a bunch of money on a bike that is so specialised you can't even sit down on it? Madness. Which is probably what most of the world thinks about it. Let's not be too serious about ourselves.

[lineaway]

 I am just the opposite. I love to ride the events. Practice pretty much not at all anymore. Started riding trials in 1972, went to expert un '74. Thousands of hours riding. Really enjoy just riding a well set event. Dropped down from expert 2 years ago, just can't crash well anymore. I have started to just quit events if they are not enjoyable. I can still ride some of the hard stuff, just hate the stuff that was set that a bike cannot fit. Its a motorized sport, not a pushing competition. And I especially hate riding in groups or score your own events. Trials is an individual sport. If I wanted to just ride with my friends, i can do that for free.

 Yeah, I also tried just riding what I wanted to in the sections. It confused the scorers and p****d off the organizers. But it was not competitive. I ride against a bunch of old experts. It sure is fun from the mental side of things. Makes me feel younger again, at least during the event!

 But you should ride what you are capable of. Riding way over your head should be done during practice.  It is fun to push yourself though.

[bikerpet]

@lineaway Yes, there's some crusty old codgers (some of whom are about the same age as me in fact) who turn up to our events and ride the Masters or Veterans classes and make most of it look easy. I'm sure they never practice between times. I also see that they generally don't turn up to the "ride in pairs/groups" events so often. In many ways I envy them. Never any stress, just another enjoyable day out on the bike.

I totally get what you say about just riding what you want in a section - I can't see that going down at all well at our events!

But I'm an ageing 25 year old at heart and in terms of hours and skills. I don't have those hundreds of events behind me, and frankly I can't see hundreds in front of me either at 61 years old.
So I'm trying to figure how to maximise pleasure, minimise frustration and get as many events in as I have left in me.

The trouble with my practice is that I don't have any riding buddies at all, always ride alone so have to be rather conservative, and my terrain while expansive is somewhat limited in variety. Lots of logs, no rocks at all and only crumbling dirt banks for steps. All on public or other people's private land, so my options for building stuff is severely limited. So events are where I get to challenge myself on different stuff. Tricky.

[lemur]

Had that same problem, nobody to ride with but I worked past that and here's how;  First off, nobody is making a living out of building Trials events and contrary to some notions, the events are not built by or financially supported by the sanctioning organizations such as CMA which is FIM in Canada, they are little more then insurance brokers that just happen to keep some records of past event results and collect competition license fees, their rule books are out of date and they have neither the motivation or the expertise to do much else.  Realistically as the organizer it costs me time and money out of pocket every occasion I host an event, so if you are not doing this for the totally selfish reason of having others to ride with, then give it up now.  'All on public or other people's private land', is extremely unlikely to work, been there done that, if you don't 100% control a venue with challenging natural terrain it will not end up being a long-term sustainable Trials group.  You get no sympathy from me about your age because I am older than you and intend to continue riding to at least 80 assuming I'm still vertical by then.  You can't make Observed Trials Competition any more attractive to new riders by structuring the events specifically towards novice riders, been there, done that, what has worked successfully for us here is hosting several Hard Enduro events in recent years, which has attracted a dozen or more new riders primarily wanting to cross-train on Trials bikes to get better at riding their Enduro bikes.  What usually sells Enduro riders on riding Trials bikes is when they try to follow somebody like myself (a senior citizen) for a while and can't.  What motivates those Enduro riders to support our Trials events for things like checkers is by making their ability to ride Enduro bikes here commensurate with supporting our Trials competition events.  Historically the one person that helps me the most in hosting competition events is my wife and she doesn't even ride any more so I'm not sure why she does it, I think maybe she loves me.

Once you start building and hosting events you will experience lots of people thanking you, plenty of criticism, loads of lame suggestions on how to do it better and even the need to deal with event security, because believe it or not some individuals may attend your events with nefarious or harmful intent.  

[apriljo]

We’ve had our property open for trials riders for a couple years now, all we’ve asked is for an introductory ride so we can get to know you and a signed waiver. I can count on one hand the amount of return visitors we have outside of events and there’s only 2 regulars. We are an hour plus away from most of the “local” riders. I think the reality is that you need the competition events to get riders to make time in their busy schedules to come together and ride.

We held our first competition this year in early September. We were lucky enough to have some experienced people come and help us with the section setting. I learned that it takes WAY more effort than you’d imagine to run an event like this. I also learned that everyone has different opinions about how difficult the lines should be, and they often contradict themselves! Ultimately as a section setter I hope to find the balance that makes it challenging but not too difficult. We can’t please everyone as section setters, and I think that will be a consistent problem with other styles of events. 

[bikerpet]

@lemur I penned a rather lengthy response (as I tend to I'm afraid), but thought better of it.
I'll just say thanks for the thoughts on attracting enduro riders, I'll keep that in mind when our little group setting up the trials club comes to discussing our first events.

@apriljo That reflects what I've seen too. I've had a fleet of up to 4 bikes sitting here with a variety of beginner obstacles available, but trying to get someone to come ride is nigh on impossible. "Oh sure, I'd love to try a trials bike" But then it's like pulling teeth. Distance is always a bit of an issue too - I'm as much a culprit. There's a small group of friends about 1.5 hours from me who ride on one of their properties most weekends - 21 sections permanently set and periodically updated. I only get there every few months, largely because I can't be faffed driving 3 hours for a couple of hours riding. It doesn't help that we tend to just do a lap of the sections then call it quits - I much prefer to ride something I can't get until I do, or until I have to admit defeat.
The club in Melbourne gets lots of people riding regularly - well established trials park literally in the suburbs. Easy access for lots of people to nip over and ride for an hour after work or on weekends.
That's certainly a factor in my consideration about events - they're a significant drive to get to and from, and I'm not a big fan of driving distances if I don't have to.

[lineaway]

 I am just the opposite. I love to ride the events. Practice pretty much not at all anymore. Started riding trials in 1972, went to expert un '74. Thousands of hours riding. Really enjoy just riding a well set event. Dropped down from expert 2 years ago, just can't crash well anymore. I have started to just quit events if they are not enjoyable. I can still ride some of the hard stuff, just hate the stuff that was set that a bike cannot fit. Its a motorized sport, not a pushing competition. And I especially hate riding in groups or score your own events. Trials is an individual sport. If I wanted to just ride with my friends, i can do that for free.

 Yeah, I also tried just riding what I wanted to in the sections. It confused the scorers and p****d off the organizers. But it was not competitive. I ride against a bunch of old experts. It sure is fun from the mental side of things. Makes me feel younger again, at least during the event!

 But you should ride what you are capable of. Riding way over your head should be done during practice.  It is fun to push yourself though.

 

 Yes, it is much easier to just ride in my yard anymore. It is 75 miles to our clubs main riding area. By an hour and a half of full on riding I can call it quits. 

 My son learned all the cool  moves right in my front yard on the fanous rt 66. 100's of hours of practice without going anywhere.

My 2 grandsons will be over in the morning and just love trials over anything in thier lives. 14 and 15 years old. They play baseball and basketball, plus live as cowboys on a large famous ranch.

 Gotta love riding. Next event next weekend!

[bikerpet]

I've been mulling over the comments from @lemur & @lineaway to figure how I might channel some of their attitude to riding events to my own.
I came to the thought that we are just fundamentally looking for different outcomes due to being at different places in our riding "careers".

You have both been riding for decades, with hundred of events behind you. Critically, I'll take a pretty confident guess that neither of you are on the steeply rising part of the skills acquisition curve, your peak was quite some time ago. This gives you quite a different set of goals. I'll hazard that you don't much see trials events as an opportunity to learn and improve, nor as an opportunity to identify skills and techniques to work on before the next event - very obvious when lineaway states he doesn't practice between events. My guess is going to events is sort of a comfortable, familiar activity that just gives you pleasure for the simple act of going riding and with like minded people. And whatever else tickles your fancy. I completely get that - in skiing I peaked in my early 30's, some few decades ago. Since then I've only been on the gradual decline of skills, so I have a far more relaxed attitude to the activity than I did in my 20's.

I'm not in the same place in my Trials journey. I'm still on the steep side of the learning curve, and loving that. I am driven to improve my skills for as long and as far as I can. As I said, I expect there will come a time when decreasing ability due to age effects intersects increasing skill due to practice, and that's as good as I'll ever get. Then I'll need to adopt a new mindset. But until then I just want to get better, learn to ride things I presently can't and generally feel progress. However alongside that I am not externally competitive - I don't care how I place compared to others, that's irrelevant to me. I only care that I am learning and competing against my previous self.

There will be a third group of people at events who are trying the improve just like me, but are also competing for the sake of competition. They want to move up the placings and grades. Perhaps they want to reach toward the pinnacle of the sport and ride Trial GP.

Then there'll be all sorts of other individual motivations, but I think these three groups probably pick up a majority of riders at comps in some shape or form. For instance the Enduro cross-over riders are probably more akin to my motivations than the other two, even though their ultimate goal might be competition driven in Enduro itself.

So while I can appreciate your approach to events, I'm not sure that it's entirely relevant to me at this stage of my journey. No doubt I can take some part of it and bring it to my own psyche, but fundamentally I go to events to learn and ultimately improve. If I come away feeling like there's been little opportunity to do that, then there's little motivation to return. I already try hard to take away from events some key areas to work on, whether that be coping with bigger, scary obstacles or being more accurate, or simply keeping a bit more flow in my riding.

This has made me wonder if there might be room for some adjustment in an event so that people like me could maybe start riding half an hour or an hour earlier, without observers and without score cards. Our first lap would be totally un-scored and pretty much do what you like. Then our remaining laps would be scored, but not included in results.
There's obviously a bunch of issues to solve, it wouldn't work for all events, but maybe one or two a year?
I feel like this would be a huge motivator for me to go. I could really work on some of the sections and obstacles that I can see are where my skills are lacking or where I'm just not confident. Then in the scored laps I would get to see how it all transferred to comp riding, and be able to just enjoy the comp without feeling like I want to stop and work on something.
Maybe tie it in with section setting - if you come and help set sections you can ride all of them before the event, but then not be included in results.

Just thinking out loud.
 

[lineaway]

No, no riding before events. And at some events you cannot even see the sections. Trials is not a local round e round course. That is called cheating. You just need to learn the skills. The reason I do not need to practice is I have the skills. Not only that I find lines that 95% of riders never see. Trials is more mental at that point.  Good luck.

Edited October 29, 2023 by lineaway

[feetupfun]

3 hours ago, bikerpet said:

I've been mulling over the comments from @lemur & @lineaway to figure how I might channel some of their attitude to riding events to my own.
I came to the thought that we are just fundamentally looking for different outcomes due to being at different places in our riding "careers".

You have both been riding for decades, with hundred of events behind you. Critically, I'll take a pretty confident guess that neither of you are on the steeply rising part of the skills acquisition curve, your peak was quite some time ago. This gives you quite a different set of goals. I'll hazard that you don't much see trials events as an opportunity to learn and improve, nor as an opportunity to identify skills and techniques to work on before the next event - very obvious when lineaway states he doesn't practice between events. My guess is going to events is sort of a comfortable, familiar activity that just gives you pleasure for the simple act of going riding and with like minded people. And whatever else tickles your fancy. I completely get that - in skiing I peaked in my early 30's, some few decades ago. Since then I've only been on the gradual decline of skills, so I have a far more relaxed attitude to the activity than I did in my 20's.

I'm not in the same place in my Trials journey. I'm still on the steep side of the learning curve, and loving that. I am driven to improve my skills for as long and as far as I can. As I said, I expect there will come a time when decreasing ability due to age effects intersects increasing skill due to practice, and that's as good as I'll ever get. Then I'll need to adopt a new mindset. But until then I just want to get better, learn to ride things I presently can't and generally feel progress. However alongside that I am not externally competitive - I don't care how I place compared to others, that's irrelevant to me. I only care that I am learning and competing against my previous self.

There will be a third group of people at events who are trying the improve just like me, but are also competing for the sake of competition. They want to move up the placings and grades. Perhaps they want to reach toward the pinnacle of the sport and ride Trial GP.

Then there'll be all sorts of other individual motivations, but I think these three groups probably pick up a majority of riders at comps in some shape or form. For instance the Enduro cross-over riders are probably more akin to my motivations than the other two, even though their ultimate goal might be competition driven in Enduro itself.

So while I can appreciate your approach to events, I'm not sure that it's entirely relevant to me at this stage of my journey. No doubt I can take some part of it and bring it to my own psyche, but fundamentally I go to events to learn and ultimately improve. If I come away feeling like there's been little opportunity to do that, then there's little motivation to return. I already try hard to take away from events some key areas to work on, whether that be coping with bigger, scary obstacles or being more accurate, or simply keeping a bit more flow in my riding.

This has made me wonder if there might be room for some adjustment in an event so that people like me could maybe start riding half an hour or an hour earlier, without observers and without score cards. Our first lap would be totally un-scored and pretty much do what you like. Then our remaining laps would be scored, but not included in results.
There's obviously a bunch of issues to solve, it wouldn't work for all events, but maybe one or two a year?
I feel like this would be a huge motivator for me to go. I could really work on some of the sections and obstacles that I can see are where my skills are lacking or where I'm just not confident. Then in the scored laps I would get to see how it all transferred to comp riding, and be able to just enjoy the comp without feeling like I want to stop and work on something.
Maybe tie it in with section setting - if you come and help set sections you can ride all of them before the event, but then not be included in results.

Just thinking out loud.
 

I do like how you think outside of the box. Please keep at it. Here is a story that might be of interest.

At 64 and with lots of old injuries, I'm not looking to take big risks when riding trials, but for the past 15 years or so have had a thing about improving the setup and performance of my twinshock bikes, mainly to maximise how long I can keep riding trials for, because I get such a kick out of riding trials.

Part of this bike improvement thing is that I have a few comp bikes and find that by riding the different bikes in the same sections on the same day, I can better work out how to improve them. Swapping bikes like this is usually detrimental to my score.

It's also great fun riding different bikes through the same sections.

It's not a big deal though and it wouldn't stop me from riding an event if I wasn't allowed to swap bikes. All I do is ask the event organiser in advance so I know how to approach the event. Sometimes it's no and sometimes it's yes. If they have concerns about fairness to other riders, I suggest that I'm happy to be taken out of the results if I swap bikes.

In your case, you may be able to choose events that are more favourable for the sort of riding you want to do. Many clubs I'm familiar with run events where you can continue riding the sections after the event and also, depending on the observer and if there is a queue or not, are happy for you to continue in a section after having fived.

[lineaway]

Yes, stay after the event. Try, try again and again. Great suggestion. I taught my 13 year old son how to ride expert in 2 hours. He moved up two classes the next event and never looked back.

[bikerpet]

Choosing which events I go to is certainly one of the conclusions I've come to.
Past couple of years I've tried (somewhat unsuccessfully) to get to every event.
Next year I'm planning on dropping that back to maybe just 3 events that I particularly enjoy. Obviously the main driver in the club was less than enthusiastic about that idea - we're already low on numbers. But that's entirely up to the club if they as a group want to try some different formats that I and perhaps others might find more satisfying. I can see that if it was lineaway's club then they'd lose me for all but a few events. No drama.

It's easy to say, "stay and keep riding", but that's most often not an option at our events. The sections need pulling in, the trailer packed, the land owner's property vacated and the organisers want to go home after a busy day or two.
I can usually sneak in a bit of out-of-section practice while the last riders complete their final lap, but then it's expected to contribute to packing up, or at very least not get in the way of those who are. And then I've got a 3-4 hour drive home.
There's a very strict no-ride rule prior to rider briefing too.
Same for continuing after a 5. That is generally frowned upon, although there are sometimes exceptions. I think I might have completed one or maybe two sections after a 5 in the past 5 or 6 years.

I'll keep niggling away at ideas that might make for events that are more attractive to a slightly different group of people. If some people don't like it, they don't have to come and ride. Just like now.
Trials has changed over time and will continue to change in future, or basically die out.
This idea that only "Conventional" comps are valid and worthwhile completely glosses over the face that current events are quite different from the original trials.
I'm not sure you'd get too many riders if everyone had to ride the same line - presumably the Pro line. That's what used to happen.
And what about stop/non-stop. What a mess that could be, as we've seen. Shall we go to the strictest, old style interpretation of that? Zero tolerance. Of course with Observers who are all capable of scoring it and are consistent. Good luck at most club trials!
And the rule about the axle moving backwards in the section - that is absolutely not assessed as it once was when you see people doing zig-zag hops - no question that the axle has moved further toward the direction from which it arrived.
Finally the point about cheating - if you aren't competing you cannot cheat, by definition!

Things change.

3 hours ago, lineaway said:

I taught my 13 year old son how to ride expert in 2 hours.

Wow. That's impressive. 2 hours to Expert. I'm certainly not that talented!
Sorry, couldn't resist that little dig.

EDIT. Billy Green (2023 T2 World Champion) is coming to Oz later this year. He's running a series of clinics, one of which I've leapt onto. Now that gets me far more excited than going to any competition!
Even though to be honest my expectations aren't tremendously high, I know very well that activity skill has virtually no correlation to coaching skill. Although expectations of great coaching are low, I'm certainly totally open to be being pleasantly surprised. If nothing else it's always a pleasure and an opportunity to learn just watching truly skillful people and getting to ask them questions.

Edited October 29, 2023 by bikerpet