BC_Islander Posted October 7 Report Share Posted October 7 On 1/14/2024 at 4:35 AM, konrad said: I've started a page to keep track of information about this exciting new motorcycle: https://www.electricmotiontech.com/home/em-factor-e I just got my Sport and now this... (not buying lottery tickets!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerpet Posted October 7 Report Share Posted October 7 It seems a bit like the death, oops I meant to say evolution, of trials is remaining on the same track as it's been the past 40 years. Machinery getting more and more single purpose specific along with ever relatively higher prices. In what was probably trial's heyday in the '70's trials bikes were relatively cheap (relative to other motorcycles that is) and had seats of sorts. My TY was pretty typical of many, serving dual purpose for trials & farm work. It was the ideal bike for moving stock or inspecting fences etc. Several of my farmer friends had trials bikes for the same reasons. Even my mum used to use it to go around the paddocks. I can't see too many people shelling out AU$20,000 for a farm bike, or on a bit of a whim! While I'm 100% in the "let's go electric, the sooner the better" I get concerned by big step price increases in bikes. Sure, bleeding edge tech always commands a premium until more competition arrives in the market, but it seems pretty rare that the prices fall all the way back to where they were (allowing for inflation). My guess is the price will fall back to something maybe half way between $20k & current ICE prices. That's about double the cost of an equivalent trail bike. The only people who'll be paying that premium are the converted. Trials will need a lot of missionaries. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go back to my TY. I recognise that specialisation is inherent in our sport and it's machinery, & that comes with a cost. But that cost also has a cost in uptake & participation that can drive a savage spiral that we've been seeing for years. Smaller market, higher prices, smaller market ... Potentially electric could compound this because they may not wear out as fast, or the purchase price is high enough to justify rebuilds that weren't really worthwhile on less costly bikes. And then there's battery life to factor (e) in. So what happens to the budget used bike market? The Factor-e is the first (available) e-trials I've thought was getting close enough to ICE performance to be really interesting. But I totally lose interest when I look at the price. I just bought an elderly but 100% airworthy fiberglass glider complete with trailer, oxygen & current top line electronic instruments for less money than a Factor-e! That's crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 8 Report Share Posted October 8 I'm not sure that trials bikes are expensive. Ten thousand UK£ is a lot if you are rubbish like me, but you can still get a secondhand bike for less than a pushbike. Once you have bought the bike they don't cost much to operate. If you are not buying a new bike the depreciation isn't that much either. I have a trials and a trail bike (CRF 250) and I am seriously thinking of selling the trail bike as I can't find anywhere to ride it that interests me. 'Off road' in the UK is becoming very difficult and trials is a cheap and fun way to scratch the itch. For many people I feel you are better off with a mountainbike. (I love my MTB) More places to ride and much less hassle. A good MTB is about the same money as the EM Factor-e. What is happening here and throughout the world is that well off people are getting richer and ordinary people are getting poorer. But that discussion is best left for a more appropriate place than this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konrad Posted October 9 Author Report Share Posted October 9 (edited) On 1/12/2024 at 1:50 PM, Tr1AL said: https://youtu.be/Kjbx2UQNTCc? I just discovered that YouTube will auto-translate closed-caption transcription into the language of your choice by clicking on the gear icon in the toolbar. So what did I learn from reading the captions...? For one thing, the FACTOR-e project had been in development for over 3 year at the time this video was made. But more importantly, I learned that Marc Colomer had to be disingenuous in interviews regarding the ePure saying, "...there is no need to change gears...." Read it for yourself, starting at about 3:12. Edited October 9 by konrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trapezeartist Posted October 14 Report Share Posted October 14 It seems to me that the Factor-e may be a step too far. Despite watching and reading all the blurb, I really can't see that the gearbox is an advantage for most people. It might be an advantage on the SSDT just to give you a higher cruising speed on the road, but that's about it. In any other situation it just seems to be a move in the opposite direction to every other electric vehicle on the planet. I was speaking to the Inch Perfect van driver the other day who seemed to be a faithful employee but not a salesman. He has ridden the Factor-e enough to know, but would spend his own money on a 2025 ePure Race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerpet Posted October 15 Report Share Posted October 15 My experience with electric trials and gearbox or no box is that the box has hands down advantages, but the bike has to be properly configured to make use of the gears. To me it's a no-brainer that trials benefits considerably from gears. If you're comparing trials bikes to: road cars, road bikes, dirt bikes, scooters, aircraft, boats or just about any other machine I'd suggest it's a flawed comparison. Find me any of the above that can provide all of the desirable characteristics of a trials bike & I'll consider accepting that how they implement electric drive is applicable to trials. I wonder if the van driver was taking price into account, in which case most of us would agree, the Factor-e is just stretching the budget too far for the benefits. But that's not to say that it isn't hands down the better bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 15 Report Share Posted October 15 (edited) 6 hours ago, bikerpet said: ... I wonder if the van driver was taking price into account, in which case most of us would agree, the Factor-e is just stretching the budget too far for the benefits. But that's not to say that it isn't hands down the better bike. The 2025 epure race is not much cheaper - a few hundred. From what I have read the gearing is the same as the third gear on the Factor-e. The gearbox therefore allows lower forward speed for the same revs. Whether that is any big advantage is hard to say as it is a new motor and I have not ridden it. The old epure in my view is fine at low revs. I think I also read that the gearbox can be programmed to have different mapping and TKO on/off as default in each gear. Ergo, if you change gear you change the bike and can do that specific to the section or even within a single section. I really don't know. But as I am test riding it this Saturday I soon will know - I hope. I will share my findings with everyone. Sadly whatever the outcome the wife already wants one........ Edited October 15 by ChrisCH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerpet Posted October 15 Report Share Posted October 15 Well I'll be very interested to hear your report after test riding. The proof is in the pudding. My take on gears is that the biggest difference is largely around clutch-dump type moves - punch, splat etc. In those situations it makes a really big difference being able to control the maximum bike speed (and the acceleration to a different degree) somewhat independently of the motor rpm (& hence energy). Even at a fairly basic rider level this is very noticeable. But really only once you are riding on clutch not throttle. If you're just riding on throttle it makes far less difference. The motor RPM plays into this significantly. The older EM's have relatively low revving motors which are probably great for riding on throttle alone, but the F-e has a much higher RPM motor that should play to the strengths of riding on clutch much, much better. Which is what you see pretty clearly when it's ridden by some of those gun riders. Chalk & cheese between it and the older bikes. My acid test for how well the clutch/motor/flywheel integrate is a front-on stationary punch (zap). It takes plenty of flywheel inertia, a good clutch and appropriate gearing to get that energy to the ground from stationary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 Well luckily the weather gods smiled on us and we had a very nice two hours. Lots to say so I will try to break it down into a few posts to make it readable. Firstly (again) Inch perfect is a great venue and worth a visit if you are near enough. We got there a bit early despite the traffic on the M6. The guy in the shop started very well - as there are two of you I will lend you two bikes. Cool - I had not expected that. We got the Factor-e and the loan of a new 2025 epure. These two bikes are the same all bar the gearbox. The epure does not have the remote mapping facility (EM Connect) as standard but it was fitted to this bike. The first 10 minutes was a run through of how that worked and what you can do. There is a throttle setting - like free play - both bikes set to zero. Then there is power and speed. The epure was an instructor bike and the shop guy explained and set up the Factor-e for us. He set the power at 40% on the green getting more through the blue and red settings. The epure was left as the instructor had set it as he had not released the app (equivalent of logging out) Something to bear in mind if you have more than one bike. The epure was set at a much higher power rating (than the Factor-e) when we rode it. So the difference is the gearbox - I'll start on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 Gearbox. The Factor-e gearbox is similar to my TRS in terms of "feel". It changes easily both at a standstill (selective) or on the move (progressive). It is independent of the mapping. On the green setting the shop had turned off the tickover and it was very easy to find neutral. Perhaps too easy as I hit neutral when changing up on the move. First is quite low - lower than my TRS. Ideal for low speed obstacles if you are a bit rubbish like I am. Second is probably the "go-to" gear of choice. More or less the same as the gear ratio of the epure. You need the clutch a bit more if you need to make a slow speed manoeuvre. Third and fourth were too high for me to really find a use for them in the time we were there and are not gears I use on my TRS either. 4th would be good for travelling between sections on big grounds but not something I do and not something we needed to do on the test ride. The clutch is light and responsive (but so is the one on the wife's '21 epure). Personally I don't much use the gears so hard for me to assess how big a deal this is to have a gearbox on the bike. The price difference is small and I almost certainly would buy the geared bike over the epure. If the price difference was bigger it would be a hard decision. The need for the optional EM Connect (included on the Factor-e as standard) makes the price advantage even less. My Suzuki has a gear indicator. In 50 years of motorcycle riding I have always thought of that as a silly gimmick. However it would have been handy on this bike in my opinion. Given the bike has a "dashboard" and an electric supply it would be possible to show at a glance without the need to static balance and mess about. Might reduce stress and wear on the box as well. After 20 minutes we swapped bikes and my missus rode the Factor-e and I rode the epure. The big grin on her face told me I wasn't going to get another ride on the Factor-e. The epure had a huge amount more power and I felt much happier with that so we did the rest of the two hours on those bikes. I did my best to see what the gears did for bikerpet's clutch dump scenarios and both first and second seemed more or less the same on the small obstacles within my ability. Sorry mate - you will have to wait for a much better rider than me for more feedback. Both bikes easily tacked anything either rider was capable of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 Cycle Parts The bike's geometry is different to our '21 model. As soon as I got on the bike I felt at home, it is much more like my TRS. The centre of gravity is further back and very much what I am used to. I really liked it from the get go. The missus small hands would have need a bit of lever adjustment but she got on really well with the Factor-e which had a bit less of a reach than the epure. So we ended up good in the long run. The Tech forks are the same as the TRS and overall the bike just feels like an electric version of my own bike. A bit heavier but not so you would notice. Brakes are superb - again the Braketek like my TRS and just as you would want them. I did a couple of 0.5m drop offs and the bike felt very confident only my fear of braking some plastic and having to pay for it stopped me pushing myself a bit harder. Within a few minutes I was comfortable on the bike and not really thinking about the fuel source. I could alternate between this and the TRS without much need to adapt my riding style at all. We had been testing the bikes in the artificial obstacle park. We stopped for a quick hot dog and a drink. (Very nice BTW). Then went out to the natural terrain. There are some nice streams and features we don't get down south so was looking forward to that. We had a couple of sections that we had done some coaching on earlier in the year so I was keen to ride them as a contrast to the last time I rode them on the TRS. The epure took it in its stride. If I am honest the test was over now - I was having way, way too much fun to really study the bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 PRB Option Both bikes had the PRB, regeneration lever. The missus' epure does not have that so it was new for me. Konrad has written a lot about it on his W3. I found it useful. On a decent you could use it instead of a back brake. It took a little while to get used to but I soon found I could sontrol descent speed easily with it. The lever is flimsy and a bit heath robinson but the idea seemed OK. I did not use the on/off button and couldn't see any point in it. You need the progressive action to make any use of the feature. The other aspect of this is it can be used to kill the tickover. This is really handy when you need to stop for a moment or two and don't want to hold the clutch in. You can scratch your nose (other body parts are available) left handed and keep the front brake on then just open the throttle and go. In fact this feature alone makes the option a must have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 Overall impression I like the bike and the missus really wants one. She prefers it to the '21 epure. The only downer is the cost. The EM Connect is a good idea but I did not want the power limited in any way. The missus found it useful however. For us as a couple it would work. The new bike is very like my TRS - a bike I enjoy a lot. I quickly forgot it is electric. I didn't think I would want the tickover, but it works. I thought the PRB was a gimmick, but I liked it. I thought the big battery would be heavy, but it was not. The new motor is more powerful and revs higher. The power limit cuts the revs and leaves it gutless. I found myself on the stop all the time on hte Factor-e as I wanted more. For people that want the bike "tamed" with slow throttles and so on the power reduction might be a good thing. The unrestricted epure was just perfect. The new version mode switch lets you go up and down the mapping on the fly - I liked that too. This is a much better bike than the one we have. I would be very happy with either the epure or the Factor-e and would chose the latter as the cost advantage of the epure is not enough. I really enjoyed my ride and did not feel you would need very long to get used to the bike if you ride something like a TRS or Gasgas. I think we will upgrade when there are some ex demo or secondhand bike available. The wife's grin tells me I will not have any choice in the matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konrad Posted October 21 Author Report Share Posted October 21 Chris, that is a fabulous summary! Thanks for doing the work. I just have one question, what is Konrad's W3? My missus just acquired a Dragonfly -- chosen almost entirely on the basis of weight. There is an immense amount to learn about that bike, and I will be adding to my website in the coming weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCH Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 8 minutes ago, konrad said: Chris, that is a fabulous summary! Thanks for doing the work. I just have one question, what is Konrad's W3? My missus just acquired a Dragonfly -- chosen almost entirely on the basis of weight. There is an immense amount to learn about that bike, and I will be adding to my website in the coming weeks. Sorry IT talk. W3 world wide web. So your website. Great news on the Dragonfly. One up for sale near me but too much. I like the idea and just on the weight as well. It doesn't have the support in the UK that the EM does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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