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Montesa 4 Ride Oil Filtration Issues


Oldarmybiker
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On the up side the 4RT engine is designed to survive low oil pressure far better than a regular Honda engine costing near half as much, there are roller bearings instead of oil pressure bearings or on near everything.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/28/2024 at 1:30 PM, Oldarmybiker said:

Jrsunt, thanks for that advice. Not naming anyone at this time. 
lemur, oil strainer always been clean each oil change I have done and the dealer said it was clear also. 

 

On 1/28/2024 at 1:30 PM, Oldarmybiker said:

Jrsunt, thanks for that advice. Not naming anyone at this time. 
lemur, oil strainer always been clean each oil change I have done and the dealer said it was clear also. 

I have got to the bottom of the problem! There is a manufacturing defect in the cover where an oil way has not been fully drilled through between the PRV (seen with circlip in previous photos) and the oil ways which go to the crankshaft and back into the crankcase. The latter is the untapped middle hole that can be seen in the top right photo and, judging from its location at the front end of the barrel, probably provides the oil supply to the top end.

Effectively, the oil filter exit has been blanked off and not allowing any oil through. I cannot see the lubrication system being a 'bypass' one if oil is to be fed, at pressure, to the crankshaft and top end. Therefore, there has been no direct oil feed to the crank and top end from the first turn of the motor! Yuuurk!  The main bearings are shells so will suffer badly from a lack of any oil supply. 

Not sure why the engine has not protested yet?  Any ideas?

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16 minutes ago, Oldarmybiker said:

... The main bearings are shells so will suffer badly from a lack of any oil supply. 

Not sure why the engine has not protested yet?  Any ideas?

You got a part number for that shell bearing? 🤔 

I think the oil pressure is mostly top end and you haven't experienced problems yet because it's built really well and the oil in the wet sump and splash off the cam chain was sufficient to stop it from imploding.

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35 minutes ago, lemur said:

You got a part number for that shell bearing? 🤔 

I think the oil pressure is mostly top end and you haven't experienced problems yet because it's built really well and the oil in the wet sump and splash off the cam chain was sufficient to stop it from imploding.

On 1/28/2024 at 1:30 PM, Oldarmybiker said:

Jrsunt, thanks for that advice. Not naming anyone at this time. 
lemur, oil strainer always been clean each oil change I have done and the dealer said it was clear also. 

Hello lemur and everybody.

Sorry, I was talking cobblers about the main bearings! Just looked at my parts diagrams and all bearings in the motor look to be rollers as you have pointed out.  Not sure what I was looking at or thinking to come up with shells.

That would explain why the bottom end at least has soldiered on!

lemur, if you need the complete parts diagrams I can happily send you the .pdf

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Online manuals are easy but thank-you.  Document the heck out of that part if you are going for a new engine, hopefully that happens.  I'd be most worried about heat near the exhaust valves and would be inclined to take pictures of inside the top end.

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Glad you’ve got to the bottom of it.
If you’re trying for warranty, it’s not quite the same as going to Mr Lampkin or Mr Birkett and saying there’s a problem as they are the brand and they give a **** about their product.

Often at Honda, there isn’t a face, the person you speak to on the other end of a computer is there because it’s a job, they don’t even know what a trials bike is.

The dealer will have to submit a warranty claim on the dealer network, it’s a lengthy and tedious job which puts dealers off from doing it in the 1st place. Photos, photos and more photos will have to be submitted.

Once this has been done and authorised every single part that needs to be replaced has to be itemised!!!! That is a task alone on this claim. I don’t think you can claim for a full engine without speaking to the factory…. In Spain.
It is going to take a lot of time and phone calls from a dealer to get to Mr Lampkin or Mr Birkett at Honda. It is possible. You need the dealer on side as it is a pain in the a*** for them. 
If you’re not getting anywhere, I may know someone.

 

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Thanks for that jrshunt, especially for the potential offer.  I worked in the business for a few years in between two army careers and am under no illusions this is going to require diplomacy, determination and effort.  Fortunately I am retired and have the inclination so will be getting lots of ducks in a row before getting the ball rolling.

I will keep this post updated as to the progress, trials an tribulations of my journey. :)

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Evenin' all.

A picture paints a thousand words!  I have annotated this one for those who are maybe not familiar with the engine.

As this is a significant and unarguable defect that has totally compromised the lubrication system, I am looking to a new engine.

Incomplete oilway annotated.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

Right!  The bike is now at the dealer and they have raised the issue with Honda.  We'll see how that goes in due course.

Before it went in I showed them the cover and they agreed to have another look.  I then did a couple of oil changes, the first with the PRV removed so that oil could return directly into the crankcase. After running the bike briefly and then opening it up the filter was soaking and the housing full to the brim. So I know the oil pump is working.

The second with a new filter and the PRV back in.  I took a contiguous video of the following inspection which was, as before, a bone dry filter and housing. Clearly there is a blockage after the PRV, stopping any oil feed to the bottom and top ends.

A shortened clip is attached here. 

No it's not as it seems that mp4 is not acceptable, Sorry.  Is it possible to get videos on here? 

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry I have been off line for a bit but I have had a result! Backstory since last post - dealer was pretty useless but after a couple of visits to spoon feed them (including my earlier video) they were able to acknowledge the issue. They submitted a warranty claim for a new casing which was accepted but failed to make any case for potential engine damage as this is clearly unpaid hassle for them! I was not happy and they then offered me a new replacement bike for £1000 to change😠. Considering Honda had just reduced the list price of a new bike by £1800 this seemed unreasonable but we negotiated down to £500, which I accepted. However, they then reneged on the deal and wanted another £107 for registration or something as Honda had failed to provide some credit they were expecting. If we had done the deal it It is clear to me that they were going to put the new casing on my old bike and punt it out second hand, which, as a man of some principle, I consider to be pretty scurrilous! So I told them I would take this up directly with Honda.

After getting through two layers of Honda's customer service smokescreens (abroad, naturally, so no-one with English as a first language or any technical knowledge) there were mix ups and confusions where they stated it was a carburettor issue / that I had received a goodwill payment and the bike registration was a mixture of my postcode and the actual reg number! After making the clear point that, as Honda has already accepted the casing defect they must therefore also accept that there are going to be adverse consequences from this, I found myself talking to a helpful and knowledgeable technical assessor at Honda UK. Hoorray!

The assessor acknowledged my arguments and agreed that there were likely to be concerns over wear and or damage to the engine and that he would make the case to management about a solution. I said that I would accept nothing less than a new and complete engine, not a short engine. Interestingly, it would appear that a boatload of 4RTs had been returned to Spain to be checked for this defect and it would seem that my motor was one that slipped through the net. Lucky me! During a second call from him it would seem that Montesa resisted a little bit saying that they oil system is split and the engine would have had circulating oil. I pointed out that none of this would have been filtered and that components fed from the oil filter onwards (i.e the left side of the motor) would have been starved. This was accepted and Montesa have agreed to provide a complete factory built engine as a replacement. As I was not happy with the competence of supplying dealer doing the work I have found another but will have to get the bike to them. More to follow soon, I hope.

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  • 3 months later...

Sorry for the delay in closing this one down but the resolution took some time and I have also got a motorhome recently and much of my focus has been on getting out in it.

I have a brand new engine installed in the bike! I got the work undertaken by ThunderRoad in Gloucester who are Honda and deal with their off road stuff.  Honda were great once they conceded the issue and a new engine was shipped over from Spain in less time than anticipated.  Colin at ThunderRoad was helpful and engaged with getting it installed within a few weeks.  As warranty work for dealers is a real pain as they do not get reimbursed anywhere near enough for the actual amount of time it takes and the hassles that comes with it, they were very accommodating considering that Honda deem the engine replacement to be 3.5 hours, or something like that.

Which is why, of course, Marsh Powersports of Merthyr Tydfil were not interested in any of it!  I will be posting as much poor feedback and damning reviews as I can on them in due course but in the meantime, on this forum, I recommend anybody to steer clear of them.  Recapping here to save you going back in the thread:

Their workshop is either woefully lazy, totally incompetent or happily prepared to lie about what they have done (or didn't do).  They were given a clear picture of the issue by me when they first took it in but declared the bike to be fine.  I have a copy of the job card - Quote "we have oppend the case and changed the oil filter and test rode the biked .we have reoppened the case and the oil housing is full of oil and the oil filter is covered in oil . the oil screen is clear with out any fragments or dibrea  oil is of a good clear quality ......." (sic).  Class!

This is clearly blatant lying as it ultimately transpired that there was no oil able to pass through the filter due to the casing machining error.  As a result I was sent on my way to do over 300 miles off road in foreign parts on a bike that clearly could have suffered a catastrophic failure!

When the bike went back in after this I still had to spoon feed them regarding the issues with the casing, even taking it off for them and and pointing it all out!  They still played dumb until I made a contiguous video of the bike running and then opened up to reveal a dry filter and sent it to the owner.  Having got his attention, they duly came up with the offer of a replacement casing under warranty but, when challenged about any consequent damage to the rest of the engine as a result of the defect, then came the offer of a new bike for an agreed sum. Obviously they were not interested in taking the fight to Honda and also quite content to replace the casing on my bike and punt it out to some unsuspecting soul with ONLY a replacement casing.

When I went up to pick up a new bike they renéged on the deal and wanted over another £100+ with some waffle about Honda not coming up with money they were expecting.  Considering their failures and dishonesty up to this point which does not show them in any kind of good light, I was surprised and told them I would deal with Honda myself.

It wasn't that difficult really but requires confidence and persistence.  What really is required now is a class action against Honda for all defective bikes that only had the casing replaced.  I suspect , in part, this is what they were afraid of when they could see I was capable and determined - and right of course!  I am ashamed to say that I will not be pursuing this course but if any reader has or knows of someone who has had a similar experience and accepted a new casing only, the precedence has been set!

Well, that about puts it to bed.  I will have a break before getting into Trustpilot reviews.

 

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  • 1 month later...

I have a 2023 260 owned from new with approx 30 hours on the engine. Received a letter today advising to STOP riding the bike and await further instructions due to this exact issue. The letter seems to suggest that a replacement casing only will be offered. Should Honda be replacing the entire engine?

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Hi Mont339.  That's very interesting! Are you UK based or US?

In reply to your question I suppose it depends on what Honda identify as the problem they are addressing?  If it is for the same problem that I had, then you should be looking at a new engine but will probably have to fight for it.

If your engine has done 30 hours I am assuming it will have had at least one service where the problem should have been identified. Did you do it yourself or have a dealer do it? The crux of the issue is whether there is a total blockage that stops oil from exiting the filter housing and consequently starving those components further down the lubrication system that depend on it.  Mine was total but other defective cases might not be as catastrophically compromised from defective machining.

Let me know and I will offer what advice I can.

Honda are clearly on the back foot here and I wonder if the timing of your recall (which I never had) is as a result of looking at my defective motor and having to recognise that they have a potentially big problem?  I wonder how many others have received one?

 

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