Otter Vale

[atomant]

How many riders at Otter Vale were contesting the whole series? Surely there needs to be some way, like pre-registering for instance, that riders can only enter if they are going to contest the whole series.

[as iow]

While entering last Sundays trial may have been wrong, i am starting to feel that the implications of that act may now have long term benifits for everyone.

Because while Club trials are for the club standard rider, centre trials are for the centre standard rider, the Nationals are for the very best in the country, and are so far away from the club standard that the two can never be mixed. The spectical of the British youth nationals should be a show case of the talent of the future, and there for the time can't be far away when only the best will be aloud to take part, or a repeat of last sundays troubles will happen again and again.

[money muncher]

I think it is good to see rider numbers around 100, it is great for the sport.

I think the problem is more with the time limits allowed.

I understand why we have them( to stop the riders spending ages at a section that may get easier etc) but they now seem to be too tight.

At ottervale alot of people thought the time limit should be around 6 hours.

this would not have made much difference to the observers but would have just taken the pressure of the riders, and we as minders would not have to spend every section holding the bike in the queue.

the officials at both nationals seemed fixed on there time limits and werent willing to listen to any fathers who voiced concerns.(some of which have been doing these nationals for mainy years and know what there talking about.)

I dont want to sound as if i am criticising the officials because i think at both nationals they did a great job, but this sport is not about speed its about skill.

[atomant]

I think it is good to see rider numbers around 100, it is great for the sport.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At a club trial I would agree, but not at the top level. Why dont they do it at WTC level then? Simply because there are only 10% or less of the riders in any class capable of winning. All the other competitors are just making up the numbers and to be quite honest, some of them risk serious injury trying to tackle sections at the top level when they simply are way too hard for their capabilities. Just look at the winners score and the last score in any class at any trial to see what I mean.

I am a huge supporter of youth trials but I dont enjoy seeing kids fail at section after section. Whats the point of that especially if they get hurt

[money muncher]

I understand what you are saying but you needto remember that in the B class there are riders in there first year aged 12,middle year,13+ last year 14+.

those in there first year may have done really well in the C class say top three.

They hope to carry on into the B class but will obviously struggle in there first year because of there physical size and strength.

The sections have to be hard enough for the best 14/15 year old boys in the country, so these younger lads are bound to struggle( apart from the likes of Morph etc.

Now are u saying that these lads should not enter any B class championships an till they are older and stronger?

in an ideal world it would be great to have a section for each year, but that could never happen.

Should there be a Maximum mark. cut off point to count at the next National ie.100 marks lost?

Also if you end up with say 20 B class and 20 A class, yes the standard will be high, but i think you will struggle to find clubs who will be willing to go to all the time and effort of setting up a national for 40 riders.

[atomant]

I understand what you are saying but you needto remember that in the B class there are riders in there first year aged 12,middle year,13+ last year 14+.

those in there first year may have done really well in the C class say top three.

They hope to carry on into the B class but will obviously struggle in there first year because of there physical size and strength.

The sections have to be hard enough for the best 14/15 year old boys in the country, so these younger lads are bound to struggle( apart from the likes of Morph etc.

Now are u saying that these lads should not enter any B class championships an till they are older and stronger?

in an ideal world it would be great to have a section for each year, but that could never happen.

Should there be a Maximum mark. cut off point to count at the next National ie.100 marks lost?

Also if you end up with say 20 B class and 20 A class, yes the standard will be high, but i think you will struggle to find clubs who will be willing to go to all the time and effort of setting up a national for 40 riders.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You raise some good points and to answer that, I believe the classes should take into account the skill level and not just age. The Top A class riders are capable of riding even higher level stuff than we put on for them. ( all the sections were cleaned at least once by them at otter vale) so they could ride in a super A level or something like that allowing the slightly less capable riders to achieve something in a toned down A route. How it could be done is with some deviations off the standard A route for the big boys. We done this at nantmawr recently and it seemed to work well. Yes its a bit more work setting out but it was worth it. That way, there is something for everyone.

The stepping stones would be less severe and more managable instead of the huge difference from a B to an A route for example

The way I see it is the kids need to be sensibly tested and enjoy it and be allowed to grow in skill and confidence. I just cant imagine what a kid whos scoring in the hundreds must be thinking on the way home. Now that surely cant be good for them or the sport ?

IMHO

[markymark]

Some good points moneymuncher. I dont think anyone minds less able lads having ago when the no of sections,riders and time limit allow this to happen without 20 rider tale backs and good riders being timed out through no fault of their own.

The other point of course is what constitutes a less able rider.Losses of over 100 are not uncommon espiecially in the first year of going up aclass but that doesnt make them a bad rider.My own view is that it is arider who is having 5after5 after5 and becomes adanger to himself.Ofton entered by over enthusiastic Dad who misguidedly thinks it will do the boy good.

It is a difficult one to call but I think most of it can be overcome with 20 sections and a5.5hr time limit.

[endo kid]

How many riders at Otter Vale were contesting the whole series? Surely there needs to be some way, like pre-registering for instance, that riders can only enter if they are going to contest the whole series.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

not all riders parents have got the time or the money to contest the whole series.

[telecat]

As one of the dads involved lets clear up a few points.

My Lad is in "B" class. It's a large class this year, Much larger than in previous years. Over 60 Riders have appeared at both Nationals this year.

We are based in Leeds. We have attended Dob Park and Wolversleigh farm. The entry for Scarborough goes in this week, hence we have an 100% attendance record.

Chris came in 39th at Dob Park. It looks like he came in around 20th at Wolversleigh Farm. He Improved despite dropping "over 100" marks.

His Aim is to improve and get into the top Ten by the end of the Year. Why? because he enjoy's it and he wants to test himself againest everybody else.

Every "B" class rider who entered deserves to be there. Some will not ride well because they have nerves or do not know what to expect. BUT they will not get better until they have the chance.

This is not an adult class, the Juniors improve all the time and a late starter could become a World class rider. Stopping Riders entering would not help the development of the Youngsters.

We already have an "elite" Youth class to push the top youngsters. They are riding this weekend in the Youth Section of the British National Series. Should we stop those riders from riding in the Youth Nationals??

Lastly Yes Time is a problem in these trials. I expect the Problem to sort itself out as the riders get used to the conditions in these trials. restricting to "the best" would leave us with a trial of 10 riders leaving everybody else with no hope. How would you get in? Who would decide? The current feeder system see's riders leave and join at different ages. The system works at the moment. Changing the system could leave us with no riders wanting to enter. Not what we want at all.

[money muncher]

Your on the money with me Telecat

i agree with every thing you said.

[adsy]

I must say Telecat you raise some very good points.

I maybe contradicting myself slightly from some of my previous

posts, but I also agree with everything you say having read

your points.

[perce]

Nail on the head Telecat, we already have an elite youth system in operation by allowing the top youths to compete on the expert course in the adult british championship. Whether they should be allowed to compete on the championship route at adult level is another discussion perhaps?

With high entries all non competative runners should be not allowed to compete, ie out of class not allowed down or UP!

Time wise we allow 7 to 8 sections per hour but with puch cards things do run slow so on a 40 section event I'd go for 6 hours. Clubs need to provide an Observer & a puncher to help speed things along. Clubs also should consider providing catchers on the bigger sections to help ease the flow, if the kids can trust someone else to catch them instead of waiting for Dad to breathlessly catch up then things would speed.

If Clubs can't provide manpower to do this perhaps they shouldn't be running Championship rounds.

Why are minders not allowed to run around after the kids on bikes?

[atomant]

...we already have an elite youth system in operation by allowing the top youths to compete on the expert course in the adult british championship. Whether they should be allowed to compete on the championship route at adult level is another discussion perhaps?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There seems to be a view in some places that if certain riders get 'too' good then thats a bad thing. You call them 'elite' like its a bad thing.. theres no elite about it, they are the best riders in the country whatever class and I for one want them as they are British to be the best riders in the world so lets help them get there not just do half the job

In relation to riding the Adult...probably best they dont.. wont do their ego's much good getting beat by a load of kids (very tounge in cheek)

[as iow]

While entering last Sundays trial may have been wrong, i am starting to feel that the implications of that act may now have long term benifits for everyone.

Because while Club trials are for the club standard rider, centre trials are for the centre standard rider, the Nationals are for the very best in the country, and are so far away from the club standard that the two can never be mixed.  The spectical of the British youth nationals should be a show case of the talent of the future, and there for the time can't be far away when only the best will be aloud to take part, or a repeat of last sundays troubles will happen again and again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'am wrong, the youth A/B national trials should be open to everyone except novice's, maybe that would work.

[telecat]

...we already have an elite youth system in operation by allowing the top youths to compete on the expert course in the adult british championship. Whether they should be allowed to compete on the championship route at adult level is another discussion perhaps?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There seems to be a view in some places that if certain riders get 'too' good then thats a bad thing. You call them 'elite' like its a bad thing.. theres no elite about it, they are the best riders in the country whatever class and I for one want them as they are British to be the best riders in the world so lets help them get there not just do half the job

In relation to riding the Adult...probably best they dont.. wont do their ego's much good getting beat by a load of kids (very tounge in cheek)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you trolling??? It looks like it. As far as I am concerned those "Elite" or best youth riders do need pushing and allowing them to ride the Adult Expert course at the British Nationals will give them the same sort of experience those riders who are in the A&B Nationals for the first time will get in those trials. They may or may not win, they may not score points but the experience WILL do them good and trying to limit those riders who feel they would like to "push" themselves will only discourage interest. I'm concerned about the direction your posts here have been heading. I cannot work out the hostility towards the middle and lower ability riders in these trials. They want to try these courses and are probably getting to the top end of the trials they normally enter and feel the need to go further. I am not going to continue discussions with such a closed viewpoint so am moving on.