Lance Armstrong?

[ham2]

??? Struggling for a coherent response?

We now know which side of the fence you're on when it comes to drug cheats, lying , bullying, insincerity, and intimidation?

Grow a pair, you child and take responsibility for yourself.

P.S. Apologies to TC members, I'm trying to sort my inbox in order to reply.

Edited March 3, 2013 by ham2

[mr neutron]

I seldom step in on conversations like this. They're already flammable enough without my adding more fuel & oxygen.

But really...... Why do folks continue to glorify someone who has lied & cheated? I wonder what that says about us as a society?

To me, it's almost the same as the way our young kids emulate the rap stars here in the states. How on earth could you view that whole "Gangsta" culture as something you'd want to be like? Same with a liar & cheater, whether it's Lance A., Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire,or whomever.

I can see forgiving these guys. But they definitely don't deserve a place of honor for what they did......

Jimmie

[joekarter]

I started out being a fan of the sport in the Lemond days and watched every Tour Lance "won" . I thought it was not only amazing that he was able to accomplish all this after the battle with cancer, but was able to bring what was essentially an American team to the forefront. I bought several of his books, read the articles, and I convinced family members to watch and cheer along with me.

And it was all a lie.

None of us would accept this sort of dishonesty, cheating, or intimidation of others from our 12 year old kids. Why should someone who passed themselves off as an American sports hero be given a pass simply because they're famous?

Yes, a fair amount of the folks in those Tours were cheating. But, somewhere back in the pack....say 15th or 20th, there was the first guy who wasn't, and (regardless of his nationality) that's the rider who should have heard the crowd on Alpe d'huez, not someone who was willing to betray his sport and the American public.

Personally I would have far greater respect for Lance if he had only entered one tour, finished 95th working as a domestique for a legit rider, and worked to raise cancer awareness from what would have admittedly been a far more limited platform. At least that would have come from a position of honesty.

[ham2]

I started out being a fan of the sport in the Lemond days and watched every Tour Lance "won" . I thought it was not only amazing that he was able to accomplish all this after the battle with cancer, but was able to bring what was essentially an American team to the forefront. I bought several of his books, read the articles, and I convinced family members to watch and cheer along with me.

And it was all a lie.

None of us would accept this sort of dishonesty, cheating, or intimidation of others from our 12 year old kids. Why should someone who passed themselves off as an American sports hero be given a pass simply because they're famous?

Yes, a fair amount of the folks in those Tours were cheating. But, somewhere back in the pack....say 15th or 20th, there was the first guy who wasn't, and (regardless of his nationality) that's the rider who should have heard the crowd on Alpe d'huez, not someone who was willing to betray his sport and the American public.

Personally I would have far greater respect for Lance if he had only entered one tour, finished 95th working as a domestique for a legit rider, and worked to raise cancer awareness from what would have admittedly been a far more limited platform. At least that would have come from a position of honesty.

Now this is the sort of person I have total sympathy for, I am trying not to sound condescending or pitying here. I can't begin to imagine how let down a genuine Armstrong fan must feel today in direct contrast to the LA apologists and revisionists, we all have different coping mechanisms. As for fellow cancer sufferers who looked up to him for inspiration? my heart goes out to them. If it had transpired that my own personal sporting hero, Senna, had abused the 'win at all costs' ethos to include drugs and lying, I think a small part of my own personal world would've collapsed too.

Edited March 4, 2013 by ham2

[0007]

And the lies that he told to maintain his position, lies told to public office and under oath to congress?

The lies he told to cancer sufferers? and the intimidation and bullying of anyone who dared tell the truth about him ? y'all sit easy with that?

He's deliberately timed his confession, the statute of limitations has expired for a prosecution of his perjury.

The 'but they all do that' and 'the ends justify the means' defence shows stunning naivety at best, and an appalling lack of morals at worst.

The two post from U.S. members seem to endorse the 'win at all costs' mantra which includes lying, cheating, drug taking, bullying and intimidating?

I do hope 0007, Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Fracy don't bring that repellent attitude to our sport, we're trying to introduce trials to kids!

My position on this was clearly misunderstood, and please don't insult either Steve or myself fathering skills and by the way, Steve is a multi time national trials champ in his own right and probably only used beer to enhance his performance

For the record, I think Armstrong is a cheater, But........

I would bet my house that the top 20 Tour de France riders were all on PED's, if you place 8th no body really cares if you are tested and you don't make the news if you are caught

Some comments here make me think people believe if we delete Lance from the record book then Justice is served and the problem is solved, Really?

Look at other sports, MMA and boxing athletes, big problems there, past Baseball world records are a joke, I guarantee football players are looking for a bit of an edge

And if you think a guy like Ryan Villipoto or Valentino Rossi doesn't take a little sumthin once in a while to recover from injury you are wearing blinders

What if Tony Bou tweaks his knee a month away from the start of the indoor season, you think a guy with millions of dollars of pressure on him would take the high road, miss a couple rounds, tell Mr Honda he wants to heal naturally and toss the championship...... or would he take a needle or two quietly in the back room

These sports are big business they are not friendly, honorable competition, employees do what ever they can to satisfy their supervisors or massage their ego, that's reality, NOT my personal moral values

We can't just find one single scapegoat and burn him at the stake, thats what got us where we are now. everyone needs to be tested or leave everyone alone, if you want an example of good drug testing look at the oil and gas industry, how come an oil rig worker is more afraid of testing than a pro athlete ? Hmmmmm.......

Edited March 12, 2013 by 0007

[b40rt]

Confused by this response, are you saying its ok as long as everyone does it and pass it off as the norm ?

[ham2]

"My position on this was clearly misunderstood............."

You make it very easy for you to be 'misunderstood'.

Your stand on the issue is further confused by this new post, you would have been better off keeping your head down as you have done so in the passing 10 days since your initial 'misunderstood' post. Your irrelevant comment relating to Steve Fracy being a 'champ' and therefor some sort of character reference is revealing; it is the main defence weapon that Lance and his cronies used for over 10 years.

"...For the record, I think Armstrong is a cheater, But......".Here comes a blaise comment, the sort that usually comes from someone who:

1) Doesn't care what they type..or..

2) Doesn't understand the dismissive meaning associated with what they're typing.

E.G....." if you place 8th no body really cares if you are tested and you don't make the news if you are caught."

Can you see how the casual observer might interpret your written word?

And...

....." everyone needs to be tested or leave everyone alone.....".

You almost scaled the moral high ground there but you had to add the 'or' conjunction. "Leave everyone alone" shows that you consider the drug cheat to be the aggrieved party as if they'd done nothing wrong.

The main thrust of your post seems to be; 'well, they're all at it...in all of the major sports' ....so your point is, that's OK?

If not, what is the relevance of bringing other sports cheats to the argument, it's as preposterous as saying; Saddam Hussein was a worse person than Lance?

Lance Armstrong was the patron of a cancer charity, not just a 49ers lineman on 'roids.

What will it take for you to realise you are part of the problem by constantly trying to justify your ill-considered posts?

Edited March 12, 2013 by ham2

[0007]

Holy crap, Was I married to you once?

The only person I ever met who could turn it all around like that my ex

K I will make it simple

I do not agree with PED's

I do believe that Lance Armstrong is a cheater

What i dont understand is why one person seems to be bearing the entire load on his shoulders

In terms of cause and effect, the Athelete is the effect, if you remove him, the cause still remains

Some of you seem to think that if you find one person and blame him the problem is solved

Random test everyone or skip it entirely, it's a yes or no question

Anyway, I'm done here, flame on I won't be back to read it

[kramit]

Holy crap, Was I married to you once?

The only person I ever met who could turn it all around like that my ex

K I will make it simple

I do not agree with PED's

I do believe that Lance Armstrong is a cheater

What i dont understand is why one person seems to be bearing the entire load on his shoulders

In terms of cause and effect, the Athelete is the effect, if you remove him, the cause still remains

Some of you seem to think that if you find one person and blame him the problem is solved

Random test everyone or skip it entirely, it's a yes or no question

Anyway, I'm done here, flame on I won't be back to read it

You got that right 07.......thank god we only read his rants and no voice or volume involved.

Never thought I would say it , but for once, I feel sorry for the (his) wife.

Edited March 13, 2013 by kramit

[copemech]

Holy crap, Was I married to you once?

The only person I ever met who could turn it all around like that my ex

K I will make it simple

I do not agree with PED's

I do believe that Lance Armstrong is a cheater

What i dont understand is why one person seems to be bearing the entire load on his shoulders

In terms of cause and effect, the Athelete is the effect, if you remove him, the cause still remains

Some of you seem to think that if you find one person and blame him the problem is solved

Random test everyone or skip it entirely, it's a yes or no question

Anyway, I'm done here, flame on I won't be back to read it

Ha! I was thinking along the same lines! I have never seen Ham(Wayne) go on such an intellectual rant! He is quite the cunning linguist he is!

C-U have N-atural T-alent!

Now, as mentioned, do you really think any of these folks pull this stuff off by themselves? Hell no!

I have never liked the sport of overpriced pushbikes anyway! If one wants to go out for a healthy ride, go get you a Huffy or a Schwinn! Talk about a load of men in tights! Get over it! "My Carbon Frame weighs 27 grams" and "I got a deal for $2000!!!!" yippie f--- that! Go push some metal you donk!

Edited March 13, 2013 by copemech

[b40rt]

When your in a hole, stop digging !!!!

[b40rt]

Ha! I was thinking along the same lines! I have never seen Ham(Wayne) go on such an intllectual rant! He is quite the cunning linguist he is!

C-U have N-atural T-alent!

Now, as mentioned, do you really think any of these folks pull this stuff off by themselves? Hell no!

I have never liked the sport of overpriced pushbikes anyway! If one wants to go out for a healthy ride, go get you a Huffy or a Schwinn! Talk about a load of men in tights! Get over it! "My Carbon Frame weighs 27

grams" and "I got a deal for $2000!!!!" yippie f--- that! Go pusg some metal you donk!

When you've calmed down, apologise to Wayne. And withdraw this rant.

[zippy]

[ham2]

Hey Copey, you're not known to have a high tolerance for members who won't take responsibility for the content of their posts, so why are you making an exception here?

0007 complains that people are 'turning around' his argument; there is so much material here for anyone to confound him, it's almost unfair. If we give him enough rope I think he'll hang himself (that's a saying by the way), I don't wish him any harm other than the pain experienced by a sharp intake of reality.

E.G.

..........At that level, if you don't cheat you don't win so its still pretty even

Agreed!

....Steve is a multi time national trials champ in his own right ............

Sifting through the faecal matter in the above replies, we can see the implication here.

...........The only person I ever met who could turn it all around like that my ex.......

She's ( I'm presuming a she) had a lucky escape, talking to you must have been like swimming in treacle.

.......What i dont understand is why one person seems to be bearing the entire load on his shoulders........

Ahh, poor f~~~~~g Lance. Still, your tone implies that the cheat is the wounded party.

Random test everyone or skip it entirely, it's a yes or no question

That's two questions and can't be answered with a 'yes' or 'no'...try it !

Anyway, I'm done here, flame on I won't be back to read it

That won't surprise us, you pop up for a squawk then head in the sand again, you don't even read what you wrote yourself, nevermind read what someone else wrote. Your solipsism is laid out for us to see, your circular argument leaves you staring up your own chuff and you simply can't cope with the irresponsibility of your 'typed' opinion.

From the Ministry of Stating the Obvious:

Cancer and drug abuse devastate lives, we need all the help we can get to fight it, when it touches you it'll concentrate your mind; apologists for Lance Armstrong aren't helping.

Ross,

Be cool, a is mighdy fine....I haven't even got my pants off yet.

[copemech]

When you've calmed down, apologise to Wayne. And withdraw this rant.

What rant, that was a complement!

I find this chat quite entertaining actually. Wayne slices through the BS here with the vengence of my Chiwawa!

And not that I neccessarily have any ill feelings about the others, yet he does make a point.

I find it unfortunate that people want to cheat the rules. I find it even more unfortunate that in many ways BIG money comes into play and may be proliferated in many sports.

What I am really saying here is the fact it may require entire TEAMS of folks to do this type stuff as I (in my limited knowledge) understand. What I have seen referred to as "blood packing" as example. Now can one do this on his own? Doubt it! And seems common!

M2C

Edited March 14, 2013 by copemech