Lance Armstrong?

[mich lin]

Well, the truth will set you free! People simply need to know the facts about the NATC. They need to know that Dr Wagner and his old gauard at the NATC didn't want American World Round contenders.

Now that this information is public for the first time, everyone can make the choice themselves. Do we want a winning TDN team and great sportsmen competition at the same time? Or do we stay with the Dr. Wagner plan of a small sport and the USA not haveing world round contenders?

It's a clear choice, we can expand the tent for the NATC/AMA brand and have both or we can continue on the Dr. Wagner path of sportsmen only at the US nationals. People needed to know why we couldn't compete with the rest of the world, now they know, it was by design by the NATC. I doubt that even the AMA knew what they did!

Perhaps someday the AMA will, I beleive the AMA would love a winning USA Trials team. Not to mention a winning Olympic trials team if that comes to be.

[steve fracy]

nsaqam:

Don't take offense to my post about being new! I was simply trying to shed some humour on the fact that I knew Lane was going to have to tell you a story we have all heard many times before.

Yes, he does have some great points and ideas.We actually share a lot of the same theories on things. But, so far, there has been not too much ACTION. Just ideas. Maybe you will be one of the people to lead a new charge and make some change for the better.

Cheers, Steve

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Dr Wiltz Wagner, founder of the NATC, has done more for trials than any other man in the USA, a man of great humor and a pleasure to be around.

Wiltz was at a medical seminar in Colorado, one he attended every year, with his wife, who would go running on the hiking trails while Wiltz was in the meeting.

One day she never came back from her run, after months of searching her body was never found, this isn't uncommon in the Rockies, as hikers and climbers fall in areas that no one will ever find them, along with cougar, coyote, and other predatory animals, often little or nothing is ever found.

Needless to say, since this, Wiltz has become a shadow of the person he used to be, and stepped down from heading the NATC, a very sad day for trials.

Wiltz, is a man who has devoted much of his life in the research of lung cancer and is work is helping people all round the world, he also was well grounded with the reality of the trials world, and very excited of the prospect of trials getting into the Olympics, he said to me! finally we may be able to bring the sport into the picture with the prospect of sponsorship from motor companies.

Wiltz wanted nothing more than to see the US at the top of the podium in world trials.

Men like Mart Lampkin, Dave Willoughby, the top men in the FIM, PLUS a whole host of world, US champions and trials leaders, think the world of Wiltz, myself included.

Now Lane, thinks it's a good time to kick the man while he is down, and once again rewrite history.

Well Lane, I didn't think much of you before, but now with this latest attack on a man who is ten times the man you are, or ever will be, I really do think it is time you were given the boot from the forums, your sick posts are no longer worth the harm you are inflicting on people of good standing in the sport of trials.

Edited April 5, 2006 by ishy

[alan bechard]

Thanks Ishy.

[sideup]

I think this is by far the best Observed Trials forum that I know and that's why I became a supporter and a contributor. I seek knowledge!

nsaqam,

Yes it is good to seek knowledge. But be aware just because it is in print does not make it truth.

Ishy,

Amen

[nsaqam]

That is truly a tragic story about Dr. Wagner and his late wife. I'm very sorry for the family and all the loved ones. I surely didn't intend to demean anyone and I apologize if that was the case.

My question remains however, why can't Americans succeed at the top levels?

Lane gave me his understanding of the reasons and I haven't heard any other credible explanations yet. Are we less skilled, less trainable, less coordinated?

I didn't get the impression that what Lane said was an attack on anyone. What I read was that a decision was made to not have a large professional presence at American trials with the emphasis instead on a fun atmosphere for the club riders. If that is indeed the case then their goals are laudable and by any measure, successful.

Lane praises Dr. Wagner and the NATC for what they have accomplished and urged me to support the NATC instead of searching for an alternative organization.

I believe that the Sportsman model now in place is sound and inclusive but I also believe that there should be room in the tent for a system that strives to produce American athletes who win at the very highest levels of competition. To demonize Mr. Leavitt because he wants to produce World Champions while still maintaining the Sportsman model is wrong. To ask him to be banned from the forums for expessing his views is wrong as well as being unAmerican. A public discussion in an open environment should be welcomed and not suppressed. If there are factual mistakes or blatant misrepresentations of anyones views please correct them and set the record straight. Saying someone is lying without pointing out the truth as you see it lets the lie stand and that is a disservice to everyone.

Thank you all for the knowledge you've imparted up to now, I seek more.

Very Sincerely,

Ken Umpierre

[alan bechard]

Hang around a while Ken before you start passing judgement on us as being "unAmerican"

By the way, that gets my goat, but OK.

Sometimes you will find that the folks that are carrying the water for trials, and putting up the money, and doing the effort it takes to make things happen, are not here on these boards, and for that matter, could care less what is written on them, they occassionly stop by and observe, but usaully just chuckle and move on along without dignifying some of the crap thrown out here with an answer.

Some of us on here, just get so sick of hearing the same crap so many times, from the same guy, that his stamina is just better than ours (mine in this case) and do not bother responding to each post. It get's rather pointless.

What I think you will find is that a lot of the folks (certainly not all) are out there riding trials to have a good time, and get together with freinds and family. That is the core that makes trials continue here. Would I like to see Trials Grow? Absolutely, go back through the history of these boards and read my posts. Do I believe that the US can have a World Champion again, and actually I guess in the WATL (that would be World According Too Lane) America has had 3 World Champs. Bernie, Debbie and himself. But I do not think it will be us railing here on this BB that will make it happen. I think it will be some youngster, surrounded by a larger group of other talented youngsters, who all have the family or community support to push them to the top of the pile. And it will be those folks out there pushing and making it happpen, not screaming that someone else needs to do this, or that organisation kept me from that, that will make another American a World Champion.

But, and I ask you honestly, is that what you want for your child? Are you willing to put everything on the line to make that happen?

The opportunity is there, there is a National series that allows Youngsters to compete at high levels here at a young age. There is a Youth Nationals to help the really young riders come along. There is a world of support out there in family and friends for the aspiring riders in the community. There is NO restriction on an upcoming and aspiring rider riding WHATEVER bike they choose, whatever they think best is open too them they can do.

SO WHAT EXACTLY IS THE US TRIALS COMMUNITY NOT DOING TO SUPPORT THE RIDERS?

There are some exceptions there. Chris Florin has to make a choice if he wants to go for WR points or chase the US championship in the present format coming up in May. He can choose to do whichever he chooses. Unfortunately for Chris the decision was made to run the event in this manner but the Promoter of the event felt this the best compromise, and apparently NATC, FIM and AMA concurred with his decision. Chris still has the choice as to which event he competes in and has to weigh out which would be more beneficial.

Anyway, hang around a while before you pass to much judgement on all us folks picking on poor old Lane. There is a long history, and several things said between the lines here that would be difficult to follow had you not been in the discussion for the whole time.

As to Lane being BANNED here. God, if you tell a lie enough, it becomes the truth. As to Banned on the other sites, your freedom of speech only goes so far when it effects other people, all of us have to temper what we say and be respectful of others and their positions, even Lane.

[Andy]

Couldn't have put it better myself Al. I'm watching this topic and whilst I'm not inclined to hit the Ban button, there is a line. 99.99% of the people involved in Trials globally draw no wage from it. They are totally volunteers. I do expect a bit of sensitivity when it comes to decrying the very people who work for the sport - whether you agree with them or not.

[martinm]

Sorry guys but this is getting a bit like a stuck record......"when will we have another American World Trials Champion?"

Simple answer.......until you have a rider that actually competes in the WTC.....never.

You haven't had a regular World Round contender since Bernie packed in 20 years ago, he only became champion because he upped sticks and moved to Europe to ride in the series.

I have said this before......making trials more difficult/proffessional/bigger in the US isn't the answer.....send your good riders over here and let them ride against the worlds best, its the only way for them to make it.

Getting back to the original post.....Lance Armstrong, brilliant cyclist, Tour de France hero.....never would have won that if he stayed in America !

Martin

[Andy]

Getting back to the original post.....Lance Armstrong, brilliant cyclist, Tour de France hero.....never would have won that if he stayed in America !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And there, gentlemen, is your answer.

[axulsuv]

CHEERS !!

Glenn

[nsaqam]

Thank you all for your replies. Once again I didn't intend to disparage anyone with my "unAmerican" comment. I do think however that unless what someone is saying is akin to saying "fire" in a movie theater, their freedom to express their views should not be usurped. What Mr. Leavitt stated did not seem to me to rise to that level. I don't know if the opinions he has expressed are fabrications because nobody has debunked them to my admittedly limited knowledge. If what Mr. Leavitt is saying is false, slanderous, and libelous then he may need to be rebuked. And deservedly so.

As to the other points. To my knowledge very few American MXers went to Europe to learn their trade. Men like Bob Hannah, Damon Bradshaw, Jeff Ward, Broc Glover, Jeremy McGrath and more recently Ricky Carmichael only went to Europe rarely and then only to BEAT the best Europe had to offer. The Europeans come here because they want to race the best. I would also venture to say that 99.99 percent of the Americans who race MX do not make a penny from it. In this way it is no different than trials. I would love to be able to tune in coverage of the latest WTC event on my tv but I can't. I can get live POKER tournaments though, and live FMX events by God! I, and everyone who's ever seen a WTC event or any trials event knows that the fan appeal of trials far exceeds that of these lame events. My point is that until Greg LeMond and Lance Armstrong, both Americans, started winning at the Tour de France it was merely a 2 minute news event. When Americans started winning, interest went through the roof. You now have everyday live coverage of the event. I for one would love to see trials attain that same lofty status. That status is surely what these incredible athletes and competitors deserve, as well as the money that comes with it. How can anyone be opposed to these competitors getting paid at least what a hockey player, or a FMX guy gets paid. I don't see this as an impossible feat but I do think it will take an American winning the WTC repeatedly before it even has a chance over here.

As for my daughter, I do indeed hope that she aspires to be the best in the World in whatever field she desires, as does every father. If I instill the desire for excellence in her as I should, I would be doing her a great disservice if I were to fail to provide her with the tools and commitment necessary for her to achieve her goals. As much as I love Europe, I hope she can achieve her goals in America.

Thank you gentlemen,

Ken Umpierre

[steve fracy]

Ken:

I understand where you are coming from in many respects. My son is also an up an coming rider that will be a force to be reckoned with, and although I'm in Canada we face some of the same challenges as you guys.It is a fact right now though that if he really wanted to be World Champion, and I stress the HE, we would undoubtedly move to Europe. I believe that the answer is to approach the problem from both ends. Guys must go to Europe, and in turn small adjustments must be made to a program that brings the young kids up.Somewhere in the middle a Champion could be born! One thing sounds to me that most people around North America with young rider's believe the first step needs to be a compliance with the 125cc rule.I also believe that those of us who do believe this need to be persistent and lobby the NATC and the new US Trials Assoc to have it put in place.

I think you'll find the most common and just complaint about Lane is that he does have some good ideas, he is in a good position to make a difference, but by and large he only tries to do so by writing about it on these boards.I really believe he has the means to make a difference in doing what he talks about, but so far nothing!

Cheers, Steve

[nsaqam]

Thank you Steve, that was a kind post and without intending to, I feel as though I've been stomping on some toes here lately. I really had/have no idea what position Lane is in to influence the NATC. I assumed he was a past National Champion who no longer was involved in the running of the NATC. If he is indeed just grousing about the way things are but not actually doing what's in his power to do then that is truly sad. Thats my job! I have no power but I have been complaining

I also agree that we should be complying with the 125cc rule.

I just want this sport to get the respect it truly deserves. This is a very spectator friendly sport and absolutely amazing to watch. With more exposure I believe this sport would soar.

I just wish I could ride!

Thanks

[alan bechard]

Here is my 2 cent's on the 125 Rule.

You want to ride a 125 in US Trials, KNOCK yourself out! Go ahead, nobody will stop you, everybody keeps saying this like this is the fix it. If you think that is what will make you, him, them, her the best, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing it. Don't say there is no competition, because if you want to ride with the big boys, and go to the world level, and compete with those guys, and you think it can only be done by riding a 125, knock yourself out, there is nothing at all stopping you.

We have the luxury in the US of not having to fall under the confinement that a lot of the riders in Europe struggle, yep, I said STRUGGLE under. Not everyone can afford, or has the desire to have a new bike every year of this displacement or that displacemnent. If I am reading things right, many clubs will not even let a youth compete on anything but a 125. Now how would that go over, over here? You think a lot of 125's would just "appear" so they were plentiful and cheap for your youngster to give it a try?

There is also the argument that HEY, What bikes do the WTC riders compete on? I have not seen Doug or Fuji or any of those guys (except maybe Tommi Ahvala at a show on a 50) ride anything but a full size bike. The argument goes that if you want to be excellent and proficent at something, go do it on that. Kind of like all the Motocrossers as we like to use them as an analogy, THEY PRACTICE ON THE BIKES, hours and hours and hours. There is a certain logic that if you want to get good on a 250, go spend an extra couple of years knowing the inticacies of a 250 maybe then you will make the absolute most out of one and that will put you at the top of WCT if that is your desire. But heck,, by the way, if you think a 125 is best, get one of those and do that because you have the choice.

And as I am already up here on this slippery box, Does an American need to go to Europe to win the WTC.. NOPE, sure don't in my opinion. (other then to compete obviously) What they need is a core group of folks that they ride with and that push each other forward. That is how riders develop. The Youth Camp put together by TTC and RYP was EXACTLY the type of thing that will bring the American Youth to the front of the Trials Scene at some point. Get a bunch of kids together and watch them push each other forward. Have them ride with better folks and see how they progress. Will going to Europe and competing on that stage be a part of the logical progression for a US trials rider to the WTC... Yep,,, lets see, where where those factories at? Where are the top riders to push to that next level at currently? Where are most all of the events held, as well as the "staging" or "prep" events that are on that level??? Go figure.

We get some groups of kids through pushing each other forward though, and whoaaa nellie. Look at the quality and calibre of folks coming along, look at the level of the YN sections compared to 4 years ago. Will it happen for Chris? Probably not at this point, but was he knocking on the door?? Patrick?? Louise??? Stevie??? Who knows but I think the level is ramping up, and it is the folks out there setting the events, holding the trials, the clinics, fixing kids bikes, selling them bikes at a loss, spending the day riding with someone else's (mine) kids coaching them along teaching them patiently that are making the difference and the progression in the sport. And you know what, those guys do not have time to sit here and type on these boards and talk about how they would do it, and how others should do it, because they are currently out there doing it and making it happen in a very real way. They do not sit and whine about how "their" proposal was not accepted by the NATC because they took their time and went too the meeting and sat through it and discussed the merits of it and listened to others opinions, then made a decision on it and went forward with helping Trials in the US continue on and hopefully push forward.

Damn it is slippery here.... Let me slide off at this point.

Hmmmmm on target a bit more

Cowboy Kenny Bartram said he likes trials riding for fun...

Pastrana has a Trials Bike

Metzger has a Trials bike

Decoster I think

And as the topic started, Lance Armstrong

What would it take to get those guys together to do a fund raising Trials event to help support the American TDN team????

Oh, and on the cool factor, I got to drive a Bradley today.... That was COOL