Is It Fair?

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Consistency

Just reading rider reports and a topics on todo trial saying some riders got a raw deal on observing calls, which if it was myself or another country man making the statement it would be seen as sour grapes, but when the Spanish themselves are asking what's the deal, then it doesn't look too good.

This was a Spanish championship round and the foreign riders to Spain are only there for the training and their results don't count for the championship, is it biased scoring for the home boy? the same gets said both ways for world championship rounds depending on where the round is being held.

When it comes to world championship events, 10 two day events 15 sections and 4 section officials per section were looking at 600 different people making calls on how they see a riders score.

Myself watching world championship riders notice they cope with the lenient or strict judging well! providing it's consistent for all, any variation by one judge in the same section, is what really hisses them off most and leads to problems.

For a world championship title, I think at least one person per section should be the main call judge a official FIM judge, a person trained and licensed by the FIM as a head section observer, and no country can field more than x amount of these people at their home event, say 75% or 10 sections must be headed by an official from another country.

I think once the riders started getting used to less people per year making the calls they would be happier with results and a fairer more creditable championship would come of it.

At this time I think there a stricter guidelines for how the parking and bathrooms are than how the event is scored.

A video, book, or comic strip given to 600 people to make their own interpretation on how something should be called is not a narrow enough target, when an FIM official should be teaching and licensing people on the FIM official interpretation of the rules.

Will it happen!! not untill every venue has heated restrooms with wool carpet's, but it's a thought.

Edited February 15, 2004 by ishy

[gasgasjamie]

I believe the best way to resolve the observers problem at world rounds is to hire 15 observers, which are trained thoroughly, and pay them to observe at every round, with the observers coming from the countries with the most riders doing the world series.

This would lead to consistant observing throughout the year.

[bikespace]

The trouble is the rules are so bloody awkward these days.

Very hard to give a '1' for a momentary stop. When you hop your front wheel from one rock to another and give only time for the forks to compress before hopping to the next etc etc it can look lovely and on one section you'll get a clean, while on another they'll give you a 3.

Now the sections are timed, I don't see why they don't allow stopping and going backwards again. There was never any great problem in club trials with this anyway.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Bikespace,The stop wasn't peanalized for the 03 season

This is the current rules on the FIM website.

Not getting at you but it does prove that training by the FIM

would help the job, as rules get changed often.

Counting of points in a section.

-The counting of points in a section starts at the section begins and finishes at the section ends.

-The section's begins and end line will be considered as crossed when the front wheel spindle passes them.

-The greatest penalty incurred in a section is the only one to be taken into account for each rider (with exception for the additional penalties).

-If there is any question concerning penalties, the rider will always be given the benefit of doubt.

-The rider is allowed during the entire Trial to explore the sections by foot.

-During this exploration, the rider who is passing the section should not be hindered.

Penalties

0

Riding the section without footing or failing.

1

One fault (footing).

2

Two faults .

3

More than two faults.

5

Failure.

Additional points

+5

The rider must accompany his machine in the corridor. If he recives outside assistance or leaves his machine, he will be penalised by an additional 5 points.

From outside the corridor the mechanic may check and adjust the pressure of the tyres.

Refusal to leave a section after failure with the established time run out, at the time and place indicated by the official.

20

Missing a section.

Fault:

-Footing will be deemed to have occurred if any part of the rider's body or the machine (with the exception of the tyres, footrest and the engine protection plate) touches the ground or any other obstacle (tree, rock, etc.). To touch lighty a tree, rock, etc. without stopping the progress of the machine, will not be considered as footing.

Failure:

-If the rider does not have both hands on the handlebar when he foots, whilst stationary.

-If the rider is moving backwards, with or without footing.

-Total loss of control of the machine. (The rider dismounts from the machine and he has both feet on the ground, on the same side or behind the machine), or the handlebar of the motorcycle touches the ground.

-To cross the section's boundaries .(The machine crosses a boundary with either wheel on the ground, the machine passes the wrong side of a boundary marker, to jump over the section's limit with both wheels.)

- To leave the indicated course. (Missing a "gate", to ride over or on a boundary or arrow, to jump over a boundary or arrow with 1 or 2 wheels -both wheels have to pass the gate)

-Damaging the markers . (To break a marking tape, to remove a marking tape, pushing or touching lightly the markers (arrow or tape), with the body or the machine is authorised as long as the rules are not broken.

-To break, remove or knock down a marker. To break, remove or move a solid boundary (marker, rock, stake, etc.), to break a stake, to tear, break or remove an arrow).

-Crossing its own track by doing a complete loop.

-Outside assistance . A third party touches the rider or the machine, to push from outside on the tape or remove a natural obstacle, the rider or his mechanic changes the severity of a section.

-The mechanic may be allowed by the Observer to be present in the section for security reasons.

-Refusing to attempt a section provided the rider has reported to the section official.

-Failure to complete a section within the time allowance

-The engine of the machine stops whilst the rider is leaning

-The engine stops whilst any part of the machine with the exception of the tyres, touches the ground.

The twelve commands for the Observer

1

Ask politely the mechanics not to go into the sections, unless to secure the rider’s safety.

2

Always be visible to be recognised as an official

3

Always give a clear signal to the rider to go into the section.

4

After the rider's performance, always indicate clearly the number of points obtained.

5

Don’t be distracted while observing the rider.

6

The observer must take care, to give to all riders the same condition.

For example he replaces a broken tape immediately by a new one

7

Don’t judge if a rider is good or bad, sympathetic or not, only the points count.

8

In case of uncertainty. give the rider the benefit of the doubt.

9

Use the whistle clearly and energetically and watch carefully the chronometer

10

It is the section's observer who takes the final decision and communicates it.

11

The section's difficulty should not influence the penalties distribution.

12

Choose carefully your place to observe the passage and check attentively that the tapes are between 10 and 30 cm above the ground.

Or click here for the FIM

http://www.fim.ch/TRIAL%20CD/VT/index.htm

Edited February 10, 2004 by ishy

[bikespace]

Not getting at you but it does prove that training by the FIM

would help the job, as rules get changed often.

I never feel like you're getting at me Ishy Too thick skinned.

I must admit I didn't know that, but I haven't had to observe at a world round yet. Couldn't make it to Ireland last year. Good job eh.

I must admit I was relating this to our club trials as this was a burning issue over the past few weeks when a gang of us visiting another centre got 1's for looking like we were going to touch the front brake.

So, my reply was probably totally out of context and in the wrong forum.

I agree that the training would be useful. What sort of training do you get at the morning observers meeting. Is it a quick run through or more thorough?

Maybe I should open another thread in the correct forum to see what people consider a stop as mentioned in my previous post.

What version of the rules do the Internationals use and what do club trials/nationals use (or where is the cut off)?

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Last year when the FIM changed from stop with penalty to allowing the stop without penalty, the ACU voted to keep the penalty, I don't know if the reason was it was more like the old full no stop rule where only a full no stop ride feet up can get a clean.

Or they just got tired of changing rules every year and thought let's stay as is and see what happens.

It's a bit like a weather forcast, who knows what it will be tomorrow

[rabie]

for club level (ie centre and below) your normally scraping the barrel for volunteers and it would be very hard to get them to be trained or anything

I'm mean I've picked up observing as I've gone along and some of the above is enlightening reading !

while ishy's idea is nice, the practicalities are unrealistic for the sport at this stage

while from a riders point of view observer differences are frustrating it seams very hard to change when we are struggling for volunteers.

also the constant changing of rule (or even if the rule change took place some time ago) confuses people (and so does observing a pre-67 one month then modern the next )

rabie

[the artist formerly known as ish]

while ishy's idea is nice, the practicalities are unrealistic for the sport at this stage

rabie 

I think this comment just about sums it up rabie, and probably why Octagon are bailing on the outdoor series.

If world trials can't sustain correct training of section observers, one per section, and that's in it's 29th year of world championships, the chances don't look good for it ever to be able to.

Shame some good comparative numbers on riders, spectators, machine's sold in the first year of WR comp and now can't be found, it did seem like more were about then.