What Would It Take?

[copemech]

I think Al was posting as I was writing, just to add remember the majority of the central part of the country runs AM/PM with three lines each!

This is NOT a format change!

[alan bechard]

I think if you read back through these posts though, I can sense the difficulty that NATC (or anyone) would have in trying to get the naming unified.

I think most will agree that the posters here genuinely want to see it happen, and have no agenda to keep, yet after several days we are still not in agreement. I can see if this got presented to the NATC (or other governing body) that had a meeting of one weekend a year, that it would be extremely difficult to get a consensus.

Reading through again, it reinforces to me, that maybe the best thing to do is to not use the "Sportsman" term at all. Let that be an NATC specific thing. We are in agreement about most, but we need a consensus to move forward and speak with our clubs, although after speaking to folks at the WR, I am somewhat convinced that more people are on here reading this and thinking about it then are posting on it.

I think we can use the term Intermediate with a 5 or 6 class scenario, I doubt many will worry that it is truly not the precise middle.

For those of you out there going "repetitive", yes, many times this stuff is, but sometimes that is what it takes to reach a consensus.

Mark, is there a reason other then the NATC you would want to use Sportsman? (it is also listed in the rules as a "support" class)

And yes Mark, the Format's that various clubs used could still be used. (at one point I proposed last year, or maybe the year before just numbering the classes 1-6 then letting every club attach their own names.) Then when you signed up you rode, interocitating guduldinator in your club, and when the sign up lady looked at you weird you went, oh, line 4...

Wayne, I think that most clubs are AMA for the insurance coverage provided. I understand that some clubs out west have still been able to procure reasonable private insurance, the experience I have heard from most clubs is that AMA is pretty much the only game in town willing to support this with insurance.

[wayne thais]

Al,

Northern Illinois is AMA, Southern Illinois is independent, OK in the Tulsa area was independent, TI is AMA. However in all of these areas the classes are different.

We use Novice, Intermediate, Advanced and Expert, the guys up north have added a Sportsman class between Advanced and Expert. In this area there seems to be a big jump between Intermediate and Advanced, I can see the need for a class between them, maybe the Clubman Class.

Here is another suggestion:

Champion

Expert

Advanced

Clubman

Intermediate

Novice

Keep up the dialog!

Wayne

[jaylael]

In the COTA club here in Portland, Or. we have Expert, Advanced, Intermediate, and Novice. In the past we have tried to run champ class but we now only have one champ rider, so it was dropped, at his recomendation. Also we have an optional "sportman" class which simply means no trophy. Riding sportsman means you don't care what your score is or if you beat anyone, but are just out for the fresh air and exercise. If standardized rules are adopted it would work best for us as Champ, Expert, Advanced, Intermediate, and Novice. I really don't like the word Master as it dates back to 1972 when we rode trials in golf caps and wellies, and Pro implies you are a paid rider.

Edited May 30, 2006 by JayLael

[ridgrunr]

Al,

Here is another suggestion:

Champion

Expert

Advanced

Clubman

Intermediate

Novice

Keep up the dialog!

Wayne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Champion

Expert

Advanced

Clubman

Intermediate

Novice

Now that's an interesting lineup. 5 Basic classes with an (optional?) top Champ class. I never did like the idea of 7 classes, but it was sounding like some folks were thinking there was too much of a jump between classes with just 5. In this lineup, the middle class would be Clubman class which is usually the meat and potatoes of any club. I like it.

As far as the NATC goes, they have said themselves their only focus is the National series. They've never been involved in anything on the club level and have no plans to ever do so. I doubt they will help push or promote anything like this which is unfortuante because it would only help their cause too as both are tied together and both are floundering.

[sendero]

I think we should take into consideration other motorcycling disciplines and the names of classes that they are used to seeing.

For example, an Expert level MXer isn't going to want to ride Beginner. He will be more likely to sign up Sportsman or Novice. He will be familiar with the term Sportsman and what it means, from the club he regularly rides with.

Sportsman is commonly the "I'm just doing this to see if I like it, I don't care if I win or lose" class, in other disciplines.

Let's not drop Intermediate. It is everywhere. I've never seen Clubman anywhere. Let's stay with traditional names.

Ridge's KISS in mind,

Expert

Advanced

Intermediate

Novice

Sportsman (forget the NATC)

Junior (kids)

Champ is real simple. The standard (AMA) has always been "It takes three to make a class". Don't bother to lay out Champ lines unless you are sure you will get three. Otherwise, they can ride the Expert line, or call ahead and request the lines. They won't snivel. They're Champs.

[mich lin]

Thanks men for the possitive input.

Let me add that Alan's idea of numbers for classes allowing the clubs to fill in their own names is brilliant. I believe that a lot of our misunderstandings on this board has been about class names. How Sportsmen and Advanced have been mixed up between local clubs.

For instance Sportsmen in the ATA is a beginner class while Advanced is one of the hardest. Yet in a lot of clubs it's the other way around. I'm convinced that's caused a huge amount of misunderstandings on the board when people talk about riding levels.

Using the number system for classes, helps clear up this confusion. The top class is alway number one, the lowest would be the highest number, then name them whatever a club prefers.

The problem is then solved forever!

[dabney footsmore]

As far as the NATC goes, they have said themselves their only focus is the National series. They've never been involved in anything on the club level and have no plans to ever do so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point.....as well, the NATC has nothing in the way of a beginner, novice, junior or intermediate skill level line or class at an NATC event, so the governing body (AMA) could or should be the one trying to set standard class names, with your input and feedback, of course.

I always thought 5 was the most you should have. Ishy used to say 3 was all they used back home, but it is different over here, and he may be coming around to our way of thinking.

Within those 5, you can have subclasses based on age.....ie.....Intermediate and Senior Intermediate. However the lines are the same, and awards are optional beyond the 5.

[29r]

....Florin ol' bud ,...You know I was there . What wuz'it 1999 ?

That's about when I went through political suicide !

AMA ? Yep , been there , done that ! Joined the District , went to all their meetings , ended up gettin' Sh#t on ! I'm tellin' ya' what , iffen you ain't a a Hare Scrambler , Dirt Tracker and OMG ! not an MXer ??! Take a Friggen number !!

Okay , Okay , I'm better now ... However , that is a reality of " Joining " the AMA at the local level that is mandantory for joining the AMA .

Another thing about the " AMA " is that ' Observed Trials ' is genericaly described in the rules ( back then ... Now ? ) and there is vague references to the NATC .

Last I knew , Michigan (MOTA )

Expert - Well..Go ride a National iffen ya' want ...You can do'it !

Advanced - Go ride a National iffen ya' want ....y'all better than me !

Sportsman - Maybe describes me , I'm a player but " Imma' gettin' old ! " , But I Mitecould , but I gotta' go to work tomorrow!

Intermediate - I want some obstacles .

Novice - I can do a full lock turn !!!

Beginner - I have NO IDEA WTF I'm doing !

Got the Seniors ( ridin' Int ) and the Youth .

I agree the local level needs polarization . Across the board . But the NATC/AMA needs to get together . Period .

Another observation ...Depending on your geography and rider numbers/skills , it's going to be hard to match Apples with Apples .

IMHO

[copemech]

Sendero makes a good point putting Sporstman at the bottom of the ladder as that is still consistant with the NATC. Bottom Class within the series.

The term Clubman still seems less degrading than Novice. We want new riders to feel encouraged and accepted and the title is appropriate. Participation is a big thing in growing new riders!

As some suggested, Intermediate would still work as a mid point in a six line system.

Advanced would naturally follow. These are many of your potential National support class riders, if they want to ! Also consistant!

Then of course Expert.

Then it would be between Master and Champ for the top class both locally and Regionally. Pro would be resreved for the Nationals. Master seems to have more signifigance in the history of trials. Not that all clubs have enough riders to need to use it, but it would be available for top riders, state or club level top riders, Champ for regional series type events.

Remember all this EXCLUDES exceptions such as kids, women, senior and the visiting Pro. I know that by just addind a few Pro splits to our Master lines has kept folks like Avalah,Peters and Chaves happy in the past, gives them something to do! Nobody has to USE all of the classes either, just be consistant!

Need More Beer Now!

[dman]

Why do we have to be politically correct about calling our lower class "novice"?

[ahamayfrank]

All,

An additional consideration when picking names is the first letter of those names. I like the term Clubman but if we use Champ also the

[sirhc]

Of course I find it hilarious that CA had it different from top to bottom of the state. Then again, it is probably a lot longer then several of our states here put together.

If you think that is hilarious check out all our classes here in the ATA in Southern California

Master

Expert

Advanced-a

Advanced-b

Intermediate-a

Intermediate-b

Sportsman-a

Sportsman-b

Novice

9 classes can anybody top that....How about 11 we have two kids classes but they are different lines and I think we do need those.

The P.I.T.S. in Northern California is

Master

Expert

Advanced

Amateur

S.R. Amateur

Sportsman

S.R. Sportsman-a

S.R. Sportsman-b

Novice

After reading all the posts I say forget all the names and just use the numbers

[wayne thais]

Bicycle racing a few years ago used these numbers for classifications:

V Called Cat 5

IV Cat 4

III Cat 3

II Cat 2

I Cat 1

PRO

They would also have Master 30+, 35+, 40+ etc. The problem with this approach is that you could have a former pro riding in the 40+ class competing against someone who just started.

V was the class where everyone started.

For Trials you could add additional classes at the bottom if required, you could start at VI of VII if necessary.

As far as I know they still use these same classes in the US. (USCF Road)

Wayne

[barcota]

Exactly why is it so important to standardize class names? In my district (D-4) we draw riders from New England, Pennsylvania, Eastern NY, Ohio, Canada as well as our normal ridership. We normally have 45-75 riders entered in our events. I have never over the years seen where our class designations have drawn any complaints or presented any problems for any of these riders. For riders outside our district a simple explanation of section difficulty at sign-up clarifies what sections the riders will ride. I think there is too much emphasis on this forum about class naming. It is not a problem at the local district level and it is pretty well defined at the National level. As a side note D-4 has produced more National class champions than any other district in the USA. Our system works.