scorpa3 Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 I'm interested to read the letter in T&MX news today from a spectator at Hawkstone, refering to the five given to Liai Sanz for riding out of the section. Did anyone else see, or hear of the incident? The letter suggests that it was a bad call as she was just trying a different line which was subsequently used without penalty by others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrothers Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 I was stood by the section. She was not alone in recording a 5 there... Cabestany, Taddy and Shaun Morris also. We couldn't see the line of sight that the observer had but quite clearly there were variations in just how far some of the riders were placing their wheels. What did stand out though was how Sanz reacted together with her minders. Cabestany simply shrugged his shoulders and moved onto the next section. That 5 cost him the win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 I was stood by the section. She was not alone in recording a 5 there... Cabestany, Taddy and Shaun Morris also. We couldn't see the line of sight that the observer had but quite clearly there were variations in just how far some of the riders were placing their wheels. What did stand out though was how Sanz reacted together with her minders. Cabestany simply shrugged his shoulders and moved onto the next section. That 5 cost him the win? Yes, I saw that too. Cabestany went back to ask the observer, the observer showed him the cause of his 5 by looking along the line, he looked along the line then just paused for a moment then turned and walked away. Didnt see what Laia Sanz done so can't comment. I have to say the line of sight between markers is a bit dubious at this level. You have tape to keep them in and that should be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack_h Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 The observer on section 8 gave one of the riders a five for going round a rock. I listened to alexz wigg talking to his minder (after being told by the observer he could not go round it), he said that Martin lampkin had told him that it was okay to go round it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 I had a similar situation on section 15 at Goldendale. It was a man made section all marked out in a straight line, with the then red gates only, drilled and set on rocks and logs with boundary tape running the full length of each side. With some creative bending of the card holders and a little pushing of the tape the riders were able to make the section ride very easy by dropping of the side of rocks and zig zag-ing through the section, actually on his last lap Raga rode the section how it was meant to be ridden and cleaned it. Only one person to blame, myself! I learned next time I would drill and fasten the boundary tape to the rocks so it could not be moved. We had no scoring issues with the section as once it had been ridden in that fashion, all had to be given the same opportunity, if there is a way round, the world champ riders will find it, just got to make sure you spot the dodges before they ride the sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 I'm guessing that this is a similar situation to our section. The riders weren't going out of the line of their own markers (the red course), they were crossing the line created by two markers from the green course for example (sideways on where the green course came in from the side. I gave the benefit of the doubt every time, particularly as the riders gained no advantage from it, and it's not always immediately obvious that you're crossing the line of another route by a few inches. Rightly or wrongly I would rather give the benefit, unless they're taking the mickey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windlestone Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Section 8 at hawkstone had a gate to the blue route half way up. There were no blue markers at the gate, or gap in the tape, therefore the green route riders could cross the imaginary line where the tape would have been. Section 15 Laia, Cabestany, Taddy and Shaun all crossed blue and red markers with their bikes therefore they left the section. It was a fine line but well observed and everyone treat the same IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted August 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Looking at the replies, everything seems explained although it does show the importance of being consistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 NYL was at the correct side to watch this as Laia came thru. His interpretaion was that she was within her line, I was at the other side and was surprised as She did not seem to be taking a different line to that of the other riders. I believe NYL heard a few comments inviting the minder to "thump him!!" after the Yellow was shown. The comments around me were that they were not surprised at the observers actions. Read into that what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordson major Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 NYL was at the correct side to watch this as Laia came thru. His interpretaion was that she was within her line, I was at the other side and was surprised as She did not seem to be taking a different line to that of the other riders. I believe NYL heard a few comments inviting the minder to "thump him!!" after the Yellow was shown. The comments around me were that they were not surprised at the observers actions. Read into that what you will. Did NYL have a Spannish translation book with him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 NYL was at the correct side to watch this as Laia came thru. His interpretaion was that she was within her line, I was at the other side and was surprised as She did not seem to be taking a different line to that of the other riders. I believe NYL heard a few comments inviting the minder to "thump him!!" after the Yellow was shown. The comments around me were that they were not surprised at the observers actions. Read into that what you will. Did NYL have a Spannish translation book with him? He's Just given up Spanish at school but if he can translate I'll ask him to post later If the words can be published. (Don't want Andy Sin-binning him ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 What silly rulings all round. If there's a certain bit of section a C of C doesn't want riders to go through they should tape it off or put a gate in such a way that they can't use the alternative line. Coming up with creative lines that other riders and/or the C of C hadn't spotted is one of the skills that should be a part of trials (and certainly one of the things that can make my rides all the more fun). All this 'imaginary lines' stuff seems ridiculous to me, it's just another finicky rule that isn't needed and makes everyones life more difficult and their ride significantly less fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartc Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 If there's a certain bit of section a C of C doesn't want riders to go through they should tape it off There is no need for tape, a rider on a given course/route/colour CAN NOT PASS THRO/OVER ANOTHERS ROUTE MARKERS. If you look closely on the reverse of a section route marker there is the same colour circle for that reason. The fim DON'T put them there to make em look nice !!! On sect 15 those that got a 5 let their rear wheel go out of the route they were to follow. ie: into the GREEN route. Rear wheel on the rock was OK, off it and its a 5, no problem. It may not have been obvious to many spectators, but that is what happened I can assure you. The section was not laid out like that to catch them out, but to cover another short cut, for the Blue/Red route. Ms Sainz can be a bit hot tempered, I know, I have been at the brunt of it myself, (Ireland Round) she thought I was Fatherless, in Spanish of course, but I understood OK. She must a got a rollicking from Montesa as she was last seen sweeping the big truck out :-) WELL DONE to all the observers, I KNOW you got the thumbs up from the FIM on the day. The riders also knew they had been observed well, to the rule but well, and consistent. Did any rider post a protest NO? Not even Ms Sainz. That says something. Thanks again to all to helped out both on the day and previous to the event. Bradford & Dist MC / L&M Events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Not that you're biased Stu To put it to bed once and for all - Ron was tight on his marking. Perhaps more tight than you'd see at most world rounds, but the FIM delegate determined he was correct and (for those who are site supporters) it can easily be seen by my video of Cabestany that he accepted the decision. Yes, he questioned it, but it was for a couple of seconds and he moved on. This was the last section of the day. Fujinami won by ONE point over Raga and TWO points over Cabestany. Believe me, if Cabestany thought that decision was wrong in any way and could have made the difference between third and first he'd have brought the house down... It was hard marking, but by the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted August 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Having watched the excellent TC footage of both Cabestany and Raga riding the section, all I can say is the difference in their lines is difficult to see from the videos. I don't doubt the observers decision. He was right, however I can see where the confusion stems from. You need to be brave to be a WTC observer. I wouldn't want to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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