cota kid Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 It seems to be the issue here is consitancy of marking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 This just shows how hard it is to lay out 3 routes for riders at this level. When we do a club trial its pretty simple to see where most of the riders will go but with these guys (and girls) anything is possible it seems. I saw Fujigas at the US round section 2 turn left off a camber and leap off a huge rock threw the end gates which itself was on a steep icline It was amazing to see but no one else tried it that I saw, they prefered to go up round the rock even though it took marks off some riders.. Now how do you allow for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 This just shows how hard it is to lay out 3 routes for riders at this level. When we do a club trial its pretty simple to see where most of the riders will go but with these guys (and girls) anything is possible it seems. I saw Fujigas at the US round section 2 turn left off a camber and leap off a huge rock threw the end gates which itself was on a steep icline It was amazing to see but no one else tried it that I saw, they prefered to go up round the rock even though it took marks off some riders.. Now how do you allow for that? I don't understand why you need to allow for that. Isn't that one of the things that differentiates the better riders from the not so good riders: being able to pick slightly crazy lines that offer them more chance of a clean? To me being able to pick interesting and slightly different lines is both a fun and exciting part of trials. If there's a really easy line that you don't want riders to take then set the gates in such a way that they're not able to take said line, or mark it off with tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 I agree. You shouldn't need to allow for it.. but what was interesting is that because that line was available and he took it, he negated the need to risk dropping marks going round the rock like the others did. Maybe thats whats needed for these guys, lay the sections out with wider gates so that the greater risk takers reap the rewards. We have a large rock area at nantmawr quarry and we thought we could just put a set of gates at the front and a set of gates at the other side and they can work out how to get across it going wherever they want. maybe you could do something like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Not that you're biased Stu To put it to bed once and for all - Ron was tight on his marking. Perhaps more tight than you'd see at most world rounds, but the FIM delegate determined he was correct and (for those who are site supporters) it can easily be seen by my video of Cabestany that he accepted the decision. Yes, he questioned it, but it was for a couple of seconds and he moved on. This was the last section of the day. Fujinami won by ONE point over Raga and TWO points over Cabestany. Believe me, if Cabestany thought that decision was wrong in any way and could have made the difference between third and first he'd have brought the house down... It was hard marking, but by the rules. Perhaps we could organise a Bradford outing to some of the other rounds and they could see how to do it properly. That is, a slight but definate bias towards the home riders!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartc Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Perhaps we could organise a Bradford outing to some of the other rounds and they could see how to do it properly. That is, a slight but definate bias towards the home riders!!!!!!!!! Can you explain what this is supposed to mean please? If you are suggesting the observing was not done in a proper manner I propose you get off yer backside and do some next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 Perhaps we could organise a Bradford outing to some of the other rounds and they could see how to do it properly. That is, a slight but definate bias towards the home riders!!!!!!!!! Can you explain what this is supposed to mean please? If you are suggesting the observing was not done in a proper manner I propose you get off yer backside and do some next year. That's how it read to me at first but I think Nigel's not actually having a go at the Bradford people. Quite the opposite, in fact! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 Perhaps we could organise a Bradford outing to some of the other rounds and they could see how to do it properly. That is, a slight but definate bias towards the home riders!!!!!!!!! Can you explain what this is supposed to mean please? If you are suggesting the observing was not done in a proper manner I propose you get off yer backside and do some next year. That's how it read to me at first but I think Nigel's not actually having a go at the Bradford people. Quite the opposite, in fact! I can't work the old bugger out sometimes either , but I think you'll find that the sarcasm is aimed at the continental observers and is meant in your favour Stu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinell Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 Perhaps we could organise a Bradford outing to some of the other rounds and they could see how to do it properly. That is, a slight but definate bias towards the home riders!!!!!!!!! Can you explain what this is supposed to mean please? If you are suggesting the observing was not done in a proper manner I propose you get off yer backside and do some next year. That's how it read to me at first but I think Nigel's not actually having a go at the Bradford people. Quite the opposite, in fact! I can't work the old bugger out sometimes either , but I think you'll find that the sarcasm is aimed at the continental observers and is meant in your favour Stu. I reckon he words his replies like that on purpose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 Jeez you lot are hard work. Abroad they favour their riders. Here we are unbiased. Clear enough???????????? Can't observe couldn't be impartial, I know how hard our lads have tried and been on the bad end of observing in France Spain Portugal and Italy. Now Poland they are spot on................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north_yorkshire_lad Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 i personally believe that 'the observer' on section 15 was not marking laia correctly as maybe cabestany and blausiak were on the green route but laia wasn't and for that being an unfair mark then to give an uncalled for yellow card which if the observer could have been bothered to listern to the minder speak should not have been given as that is all the minder was doing, speaking to him showing no agression what so ever. but of course when the top world championship riders minders came and spoke to him no card was shown even when taddy himself came down to speak to him he showed no card. observing should be consistant and in my books and a few other peoples too that was not and should have been seriously discussed after the event. i don't understand why the observer did not ask for some modifications to be made if he reolised how much controversy surrounded a section. If certain members of the bradford club start coming up to my dad with accusations they better make sure they get them right because i don't see why for one minute i would side with you over 'thumping an observer' (this has no offence to any other Bradford club members as the ones in question know who they are i just thought it better if i didn't name names) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 (edited) NYL was at the correct side to watch this as Laia came thru. His interpretaion was that she was within her line, I was at the other side and was surprised as She did not seem to be taking a different line to that of the other riders. I believe NYL heard a few comments inviting the minder to "thump him!!" after the Yellow was shown. The comments around me were that they were not surprised at the observers actions. Read into that what you will. Had words with the Observer concerned at Addingham. Despite his concerns that others had read the post as Him wanting to "hit somebody", re reading my post I see no reason to modify it. Perhaps the person(s) passing info on could read it more accurately before attempting to "stir" things in future. I believe I know who that was and I may not be as polite as I have been in the future. As regards markers for other courses I mark on the lines that if the two are serperated then the Lower course markers do not count. Provided the rider passes thru the correct markers for their course the line of a lower or higher course are discounted. The exception being where a course is has main Course markers of one set of colours and Exception markers for an alternate course. National and World Trials don't have this. Where riders use the same gate all markers are set for that gate. Edited August 7, 2006 by Telecat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted August 8, 2006 Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 (edited) As regards markers for other courses I mark on the lines that if the two are serperated then the Lower course markers do not count. Provided the rider passes thru the correct markers for their course the line of a lower or higher course are discounted. The exception being where a course is has main Course markers of one set of colours and Exception markers for an alternate course. National and World Trials don't have this. Where riders use the same gate all markers are set for that gate. Not quite sure what you mean, but FIM rules state that you can't cross through the gates of another course. No matter if they're the only gates around or if they take you a harder way, if they're not yours you can't pass through them. The riders know the rules. It is unfortunate, and I don't like to see them get fived for silly stuff like that, but when you've got 3 courses close together like that, there are going to be times where the courses come close and the riders have to make sure. Last year we had a section where it was tempting to cross your own tracks. You can do this with one wheel, but not with two. Some of the top minders placed their foot where the front wheel went on the way up, so that the rider could make sure he got it right on the way down. I wouldn't have complained in the section 15 situation if the minder placed his foot on the line of the other route. I suppose some observers would throw the minder out of the section. I think there has to be some common sense. On my section this year, if the rider failed the step, there was an awkward route up the side of the rock, but very close to the green route. If the rider went that way I warned them not to cross the line and pointed it out. I don't think there's anything wrong with warning the riders where you're going to be absolutely strict. Edited August 8, 2006 by bikespace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrown Posted August 8, 2006 Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 This just shows how hard it is to lay out 3 routes for riders at this level. When we do a club trial its pretty simple to see where most of the riders will go but with these guys (and girls) anything is possible it seems. I saw Fujigas at the US round section 2 turn left off a camber and leap off a huge rock threw the end gates which itself was on a steep icline It was amazing to see but no one else tried it that I saw, they prefered to go up round the rock even though it took marks off some riders.. Now how do you allow for that? I actually had Fuji's line in mind when laying out section 2, but thought to myself wow, that's insane, we can't make them do that, but if it's available somebody might try it. So we set the section with a way up and around the rocks with a steep downhill to an off camber exit that probably wouldn't have been so difficult had it not been so wet & slippery. I think it's good to have something spectacular that offers a potential reward for an aggresive rider, but is not necessary for the lesser ones to get through the section. Of course, most of the lesser ones never got up to that point in the first place, but that was the principle. Didn't see the section at Hawkstone, but I can say from experience that you really, really have to think about where these gates are located to try to avoid the potential problems of riders being tempted to cross another class gates. It puts pressure on observers if you have stuff like this that everyone has to watch for. The best section layout minimizes the potential conflicts and makes it easier on both riders and observers. But it really forces the organizer to study & think about sections from every possible angle. I learned a few lessons at the US round of things that could've been done a little better; if you pay attention, you can always find ways to improve. dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartc Posted August 8, 2006 Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 If certain members of the bradford club start coming up to my dad with accusations they better make sure they get them right No accusation was made a QUESTION was asked !!!! As regards markers for other courses I mark on the lines that if the two are serperated then the Lower course markers do not count. Provided the rider passes thru the correct markers for their course the line of a lower or higher course are discounted. The exception being where a course is has main Course markers of one set of colours and Exception markers for an alternate course. National and World Trials don't have this. Where riders use the same gate all markers are set for that gate. ????????? I really dont understand this at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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